How to pronounce "pushback"

Uma Valeti: I'm an optimist,

and I think in order for us to be able to solve

these immense challenges ahead of us,

it's going to require

the worldview of optimism,

but a very pragmatic view of solutions.

And going at it over and over again.

Because what might not have worked a month ago or a week

or even a year ago or a decade ago, would work now.

Jon Kung: A focus on the optimism is, I think,

what we need for like younger generations.

And I do think, like, your work is one of those examples of good things.

[Intersections]

[Uma Valeti: Food pioneer]

[Jon Kung: Chef, content creator]

UV: The connection with food, it always goes back to childhood for me.

And I grew up in the kitchen, so to speak, with my mom,

trying to cook everything she did.

I used to watch her, tried to help her chop vegetables,

or go to the Sunday market with my dad and bring back meat and slice meat.

And kind of wanted to cook from day one,

but I realized some of my skills weren't great.

So I went to school in India,

and there was this hawker who was right outside our school.

And I was fascinated with his work

because he used to sell the fast foods of India

called bhaji and things like that.

But the way he chopped onions, just, I was hooked onto it

because he would slice them up like, he'll take an onion,

and in 10 seconds, the whole thing will be sliced and diced like, finely.

I'm like, I'm going to master that.

So I became the master slicer-dicer of onions in my house.

And later on in food, obviously,

look, it's the most creative expression of anything you can do in a daily life.

And, I love to cook with my wife and kids,

and it's just became part of my life.

And I feel like it's also a way to fiercely express your creativity

or independence and what you want that creation to be.

So yeah, it's just deeply, deeply connected to food.

JK: Wonderful.

UV: What about yours?

What's your personal connection to food?

JK: My personal connection to food,

as you had said, it is an expression of my creativity,

but it is also a way that we express our culture

and the way that we pass down our cultures.

So growing up in Hong Kong as well as Toronto,

food was very much a way that I was attached to the things

that my parents loved as well as my grandparents.

My own grasp on Cantonese language is very, very weak,

because of all the traveling that we did when I was younger.

So I felt like relearning cultural dishes was a way

that I would easily get in contact with my roots.

(Whispers) Without having to learn a language.

(Laughter)

But yeah, yeah.

UV: What did food mean to you when you were growing up in Hong Kong?

JK: I mean, food, I was very, very blessed.

Hong Kong, as is India, has a very rich culinary history

and actually shares a little similar ones in terms of, I would guess --

UV: Is it the spices?

JK: Well, imperialism.

UV: Yes.

JK: But yeah, our appreciation for spices and flavor.

There's an internationality that was brought into there.

So I was very spoiled for choice.

In terms of what good food is,

and I used that memory to kind of like,

craft my entire skill set.

Because I’m self-taught,

and I had nothing to go off of except my earlier experiences with food.

So luckily, like, Hong Kong taught me how to eat.

And by that, I taught myself how to cook.

UV: So was that experience one of those formative ones that made you say,

"I want to cook in America"?

JK: Yeah.

The biggest reason was because where I was living,

where I do live now, Detroit,

at the time didn't have a lot of options for traditional Cantonese food

that I missed.

So out of necessity, which, as I think like,

is a very common thread

among a lot of students from Asia,

is like they teach themselves how to cook

because where they end up for school

doesn't offer the food that they miss from home.

UV: That's right.

JK: And yeah, that was pretty much the basis of it.

It just so happened that it turned into my career

as opposed to just a hobby.

What made you want to be a cardiologist, then?

UV: Look, I grew up watching my grandfather,

who had been taking care of patients all his life.

JK: So he was a doctor as well?

UV: He was a physician.

I loved it when he would take care of people,

and there would be this expression of, I think, gratitude.

And my grandfather would not expect anything in return.

He never charged a dollar for anyone.

He was in the Gandhian movement and the freedom movement for India.

And I just grew up adoring him.

I'm like, "Ah, that would be cool."

And then as I started learning more about medicine,

I went to one of the medical schools in India,

and realized very quickly that cardiology is one thing

where you would get to save patients' lives,

literally resuscitate patients who were dead in the field,

resuscitate them and bring them back to life.

And I found nothing more gratifying than being able to save someone's life.

And then that relationship continues afterwards,

because then there's a bond between you and the patient

who now is not a patient anymore,

back to living his own life or her own life.

And then this bond with that person and their family kind of continues on.

So I was really like, this is what I want to be in my life.

JK: Would you say that intersectionality

of like being able to tend and care for people

is like, what crossed you over into this food space then?

UV: You know, I didn't know back in 2015, 2016,

when I was thinking of quitting cardiology

and starting off on this crazy journey that I'm on right now,

but looking back and reflecting on it,

there is a lot of common threads

where both are bound

by a deep sense of purpose

and a deep sense of building relationships

and defying some of the things

where people keep telling you it's impossible to do this.

It's impossible to save someone's life.

They're already dead in the field.

You can't resuscitate them back.

And here, we are looking at a ...

Impending food crisis, climate crisis of such large proportions.

And people keep saying it's impossible to do this.

We cannot do this, we will not do this,

people will not change, countries won't change.

And I think this is a much bigger fight than saving an individual patient's life.

But I think those common threads of saying, yes,

these are possible by putting one foot in front of the other

and starting to slowly make these things go away,

and you climb one mountain,

celebrate the victory for a moment,

and then the next mountain is in front of you.

JK: So that was your, kind of inspiration to start Upside?

UV: Yeah, yeah.

Upside Foods is a company that I started in late 2015.

And the idea is, you know,

the most delicious product in the world that we've known as humans is meat.

JK: Yeah, I will agree with you.

UV: No disrespect to salads or greens or beans,

but meat is the center of plate for almost every tradition in the world.

And a lot of our memories growing up

and also with our families now are tied to cooking meat.

And while it's the most beloved food,

there's also this incredible challenge

where we ignore how it comes to the plate.

And we all know there's a troubling story of how meat comes to the plate.

But we love it so much.

We love the product so much, not the process so much,

and there hasn't been a real solution for it until now.

So we've continued our journey as being conflicted carnivores, let's say.

And I thought it would be really cool

if we can actually try to work on a solution

where we can bring meat grown from animal cells

directly to the plate.

So we're not asking people to give up animal-based products,

but incorporate that in the future.

So the traditions can continue, the culture can continue.

It's a big-tent solution where nearly people from all stripes can come together.

And I've thought it will be a win-win, but this was at the time of an idea stage.

It is really, really hard to do it.

JK: To put it to practice.

What's been the biggest challenge so far

in getting people to, like, accept this kind of like new way of --

it's not even like a product in a way,

but it's like a new way of accepting what meat is

and what meat could be.

UV: Yeah, there have been challenges along the way,

but this is unfolding in multiple chapters.

So the challenges in the first chapter were,

people loved the idea

but did not believe that the science would work.

So the first chapter was all about proof of science,

showing that the science can work

and that we can take cells from an egg or a chicken or a cow

and grow meat directly from those cells.

And once we started doing it,

we started showing these products and cooking it in front of people

and having hardcore meat eaters and chefs come and cook it.

And it just melts, the disbelief melts

into like, "Wow, this is possible."

And then when they taste it,

it just demystifies a lot of things

because all the neurons that have been programmed

to kind of recognize as meat will start firing in your brain.

JK: Which I think is so interesting because like, a lot of people

that would probably be like, your greatest detractors

are like, the same type of person

that would be uncomfortable eating chicken wings

with bones in it still.

Our perceptions of like, from animal to meat

have been so far removed from what it actually is

or where it actually comes from,

that this does not seem like that much of a leap,

considering how much we process the meat that we eat already.

Like, it is unrecognizable once it comes to your grocery store anyway,

compared to what it was when it was on the farm.

So like, what's the difference here?

Or like, why is this such a stretch?

UV: Well, yeah, I mean,

I think, I'd say this.

I think nearly all major or transformative innovations

that have happened in the world

eventually triumphed despite formidable opposition.

And the opposition here is,

I think the fear of the unknown

is actually higher

than all the risks we are taking right now

with the amount of animals we are raising in intense,

confined places,

that can increase the risk of pandemics or zoonotics

or things just like food poisoning.

Or draining ecosystems to feed the crops to the animals.

Or even simply just like, what about animal welfare?

Things of that nature.

So that's the part that has been really interesting for us to learn

that the fear of the unknown

is more than the fear of what we are actually living with

every second in our lives.

And part of this is communicating better, demystifying it.

And I think demystification should be very simple.

Tasting the product, magical experience.

Touring the place where it's made in clean production facilities,

where you can just go around and walk around and say,

"Hey, here's animal cells growing."

And then the last thing is just meeting the people that are making it.

You know, they're just like people in your neighborhood working, farming,

the people that are working behind it.

Like there’s Gen Z’s and millennials

and people of all generations that are part of our team.

Just talking to them, like, these are real people

working on making real products and solutions.

JK: I feel like if you demystified the traditional way of processing meat,

they would all come flocking to this as well.

I think so much of people’s acceptance of traditional meat

is like rooted in what they don't know

about the process of like,

not just the cost of cruelty to animals or the environmental costs,

but like the human cost of it as well.

Like, these processing facilities are extremely harsh on like, the body.

And I guess the wages are probably not very good as well.

UV: Yeah, but coming back to you, I mean,

you have been known to be creating a revolution in Detroit

as a third-culture cook.

And I would love to hear about your philosophy.

What is that? What's your philosophy?

JK: So when it comes, like, third-culture cooking

or being a person of third culture is,

actually you have the exact lived experience,

is growing up with a predominant culture in your household,

but your household just happens to be

in a completely different culture altogether.

So in my case, growing up Chinese in a North American household,

crossing the cultural threshold every time you like, step out the door.

I've been pushing this idea

that like, that access to daily nuance in two different cultures

gives you kind of like an in-depth knowledge on both

in a way that somebody who just studies one

or just like lived in one doesn't really have.

And you see examples of this, like, all over the country,

like, Koreatown in Los Angeles or Queens out here in New York.

Just places where people are used to like, complete immersion

in more than one culture on their day-to-day life.

And that produces, creatively speaking,

like a completely different kind of output.

In my case, it's food.

And it is like people will say, "Well, isn't that just fusion?"

Which I don't believe should be considered a dirty word

in culinary anymore.

But yes, I think if you look back far enough,

all food and all cooked food is fusion.

UV: It is the melding of cultures as the communities grow

and become more diverse.

And so it's a beautiful expression.

JK: Yes, and I was like, it's either rooted in creativity

or cultural exchange, or even just adaptation.

Necessity.

One of the biggest things that I'm tackling right now

is trying to get people to accept electricity into their home kitchens

in lieu of, like, gas ranges.

And I've been having a lot of pushback from a lot of Chinese community

because of the way that we cook with woks.

UV: I see.

JK: They want that high BTU, high-powered thing,

high-powered output to come out through the wok cooking.

And I've been trying to explain it's like, it's just energy.

Like, you can get that in a way,

without having all these toxic fumes and using all this fuel.

You can get that with induction now.

And it's just a focused energy into the same pan

that you've always been using.

And in that, I do believe like, that's the adaptation element

where it's like, we have to do better

for not just, you know, the planet,

but ourselves and our own personal health.

And I think that's like where a lot of our missions intersect.

UV: Yeah, I mean, I'm curious, what's your favorite food to cook?

JK: Oh, me?

UV: Using this type of ...

JK: Chefy-chef answers, like, I like to cook eggs in it

because, like, eggs give you such an immediate response

and a visual cue in, like, their level of doneness.

And that kind of allows you to match --

because with flame, you have a visual cue.

With induction, it’s just numbers, and it’s hard to quantify that.

So an egg can give you that like, immediate visual feedback

on like what that energy is doing.

And by that, it's pretty much

how I learned to cook traditional Chinese food in a wok

without the help of a flame.

UV: I see, OK.

What's your take

on how our cooking can evolve

and our choice of foods can evolve

to meet the crisis of climate?

JK: I mean, if your project goes off the ground

and gets into everyone's homes,

I feel like that would be a big one.

But I think ultimately we have to meet humans

at where their desires are.

We've tried very hard, since our generations were very young,

to appeal to like, this is what we have to do.

We have to be stewards of the planet and stuff.

And yes, that is very much true.

But on an individual level, humans are beings of desire,

for better or for worse.

And I think that is one of the problems

that you are tackling, is meeting them at their desires

and at their wants and at their comforts.

We've tried with alternatives already,

and I think like, this is probably the best way to do it.

If we're going to tackle the climate crisis together, it's just like,

meet them where their wants are.

UV: I keep describing this as the catch-22,

where we would want to have the solutions that preserve our choice.

And we also do not want to have downsides to the choices we make.

But there is a fair amount of wishful or magical thinking on our part,

it’s just humanity, that if we ignore the downsides,

they'll go away.

But the debt is building up enormously,

and it is striking at unexpected,

you know in unexpected ways.

And I mean, look at how we’re coming out of the pandemic,

100-year pandemic.

And we still do not know exactly how that took off like it.

And millions of people died, millions of people.

My father died.

A healthy man running around, happy, veterinarian.

In two weeks.

And I think all of us are having more and more of these experiences.

I think that is part of the debt that we’re building up.

And I’m hoping that the catch-22 will get resolved

by a lot more innovators

and incumbent industry coming together,

a lot more people crossing party lines,

lots of businesses saying this is relevant for us,

and just letting these conversations like this happen

and showing people what's possible.

And I'm really, you know, I'm an optimist.

And I think in order for us to be able to solve

these immense challenges ahead of us,

it's going to require

the worldview of optimism,

but a very pragmatic view of solutions.

And going at it over and over again,

because what might not have worked a month ago or a week

or even a year ago or a decade ago would work now.

JK: I think that optimism is very, very important

because it seems like with the younger generations,

at least like, what I see on TikTok and Shorts and all and Reels,

is that the fatalistic doom and gloom messaging

has been very, very effective.

To the point where young people almost feel -- not almost,

they do feel helpless.

And there was not enough of a focus

to like, the good things that we were doing.

Not in a sense that we need to, like, pat ourselves on the back,

but like, you know, progress is happening.

Technology is advancing, and people are doing work to prevent disaster

or further disaster from happening.

And we need to focus on those stories

just so that we can encourage people to like, continue,

like, doing what they can.

Voting in a way that benefits the planet and humanity.

And yeah, a focus on the optimism is, I think,

what we need for younger generations.

And I do think, like, your work is one of those examples of good things.

UV: Yeah, we are in the intersection of an enormous amount of support

but also enormous amount of resistance.

Places like Florida and Alabama and Italy

have banned

and criminalized making cultivated meat.

And it's all fresh in the last few weeks, months.

But I do think cultivated meat offers a really big win for people

and businesses and communities in these places

and also across the world,

because it is the one single thing

that can bring people of multiple stripes under the big tent.

You know, people who prize innovation,

people who prize tradition,

people who love eating meat

and those who object to animal slaughter.

And basically to simplify,

people who love choice and people who love life.

I think it's one of those things where we can bring people together

and hopefully, eventually I think we’ll overcome these bans.

JK: Yeah, I'm about to say like, hopefully through acceptance in other states

and like, through examples and popularity that other places will show

that this is a good product,

this is a delicious product,

that those bans would ultimately be lifted

because they do seem like they were enacted out of ignorance and fear.

And let's face it, protectionism.

UV: There is a fair amount of that.

And I think part of our work is to reach out

as opposed to, you know,

picking up and trying to just create more polarization.

Our goal is to reach out and let those communities

and the people who wanted us to earn our right,

see how we're going to earn our right by bringing people together.

So that's part of my personal goal.

So we'll be doing more work in Florida, Alabama and if needed to be, in Italy.

JK: Well, if I can help in any way, I'd be happy to.

UV: Well, thank you, Jon, I really appreciate it.

Well, Jon, it's really been fun to talk to you

and a cool fact was, I got my start in Detroit.

And I think of the Motor City

as the one that got my motor going on innovation,

and I'm so glad that we intersect.

And the fact that we both have connections to Detroit.

So I'd love to come and visit your restaurant.

JK: I would love for you to come.

Detroit really has always been a city of innovation

whether it comes to like, entrepreneurship or creativity.

I think it's been an underdog for far too long

and really deserves its flowers.

But the fact that it managed to produce both of us and we ended up here.

I mean ...

UV: Look, Detroit has been the heart of the automotive transformation.

And I keep telling: there’s a food transformation happening,

and I'm happy to draw my roots from having an experience in Detroit

that kind of influenced me

to keep going on in search of cardiology

and then going on in search of trying to say,

can we make meat better and bring cultivated meat into the world?

So I love Detroit, so I'm going to come and visit your restaurant.

JK: We will be happy to have you back.

UV: Thank you Jon. JK: Thank you.