How to pronounce "liturgy"

this is how to be a better human I am

this is how to be a better human I am

this is how to be a better human I am your host Chris Duffy today we're

your host Chris Duffy today we're

your host Chris Duffy today we're talking about religion faith and

talking about religion faith and

talking about religion faith and spirituality so you know the kind of

spirituality so you know the kind of

spirituality so you know the kind of classic topics you're supposed to avoid

classic topics you're supposed to avoid

classic topics you're supposed to avoid at the dinner table in polite

at the dinner table in polite

at the dinner table in polite conversation but the thing that I love

conversation but the thing that I love

conversation but the thing that I love about today's guest the ordained

about today's guest the ordained

about today's guest the ordained minister and best-selling author Nadia

minister and best-selling author Nadia

minister and best-selling author Nadia bolts Weber is that Nadia does not come

bolts Weber is that Nadia does not come

bolts Weber is that Nadia does not come at this in the kind of stereotypical pop

at this in the kind of stereotypical pop

at this in the kind of stereotypical pop culture idea of faith and spirituality

culture idea of faith and spirituality

culture idea of faith and spirituality she doesn't come at this from a place of

she doesn't come at this from a place of

she doesn't come at this from a place of certainty where she knows better and you

certainty where she knows better and you

certainty where she knows better and you don't instead Nadia comes at this from a

don't instead Nadia comes at this from a

don't instead Nadia comes at this from a place of personal failing and striving

place of personal failing and striving

place of personal failing and striving to be better and knowing that she's not

to be better and knowing that she's not

to be better and knowing that she's not getting it right and I think wherever

getting it right and I think wherever

getting it right and I think wherever you're coming from you can get something

you're coming from you can get something

you're coming from you can get something from what Nadia says I think she has a

from what Nadia says I think she has a

from what Nadia says I think she has a really refreshing take on religion and

really refreshing take on religion and

really refreshing take on religion and spirituality and I'm so excited for you

spirituality and I'm so excited for you

spirituality and I'm so excited for you to hear

to hear

to hear [Music]

[Music]

[Music] it for people who aren't already super

it for people who aren't already super

it for people who aren't already super familiar with your work can you give us

familiar with your work can you give us

familiar with your work can you give us just like a brief history of the house

just like a brief history of the house

just like a brief history of the house for all Sinners and Saints and of the

for all Sinners and Saints and of the

for all Sinners and Saints and of the the church that you started and the type

the church that you started and the type

the church that you started and the type of theological work that you believe in

of theological work that you believe in

of theological work that you believe in and that you do basically I was raised

and that you do basically I was raised

and that you do basically I was raised really like Christian fundamentalist and

really like Christian fundamentalist and

really like Christian fundamentalist and um like women weren't even allowed to

um like women weren't even allowed to

um like women weren't even allowed to pray out loud in front of men and the

pray out loud in front of men and the

pray out loud in front of men and the people in the Church of Christ were the

people in the Church of Christ were the

people in the Church of Christ were the only real Christians we were the only

only real Christians we were the only

only real Christians we were the only people going to heaven you it was very

people going to heaven you it was very

people going to heaven you it was very sectarian and I left that uh for reasons

sectarian and I left that uh for reasons

sectarian and I left that uh for reasons of you know self-preservation when I was

of you know self-preservation when I was

of you know self-preservation when I was a teenager but it's a very recent idea

a teenager but it's a very recent idea

a teenager but it's a very recent idea in human history that you can just

in human history that you can just

in human history that you can just choose your symbol system you know your

choose your symbol system you know your

choose your symbol system you know your the symbol system that that uh you are

the symbol system that that uh you are

the symbol system that that uh you are surrounded by when your brain is forming

surrounded by when your brain is forming

surrounded by when your brain is forming will always sort of affect the way you

will always sort of affect the way you

will always sort of affect the way you see the world that doesn't mean you'll

see the world that doesn't mean you'll

see the world that doesn't mean you'll agree with the theological propositions

agree with the theological propositions

agree with the theological propositions but it's still in there and so for me I

but it's still in there and so for me I

but it's still in there and so for me I had to leave the church and I had to

had to leave the church and I had to

had to leave the church and I had to leave Christianity for self reservation

leave Christianity for self reservation

leave Christianity for self reservation and I'm so glad I did and and it was the

and I'm so glad I did and and it was the

and I'm so glad I did and and it was the healthy good thing to do for me but

healthy good thing to do for me but

healthy good thing to do for me but there was a part of me that I left

there was a part of me that I left

there was a part of me that I left behind because I was so formed by it and

behind because I was so formed by it and

behind because I was so formed by it and so to to have only an absolutely

so to to have only an absolutely

so to to have only an absolutely negative view of something that formed

negative view of something that formed

negative view of something that formed me created an alienation inside myself

me created an alienation inside myself

me created an alienation inside myself that um got to be resolved when I came

that um got to be resolved when I came

that um got to be resolved when I came back to Christianity but like on my own

back to Christianity but like on my own

back to Christianity but like on my own terms in a completely different scene I

terms in a completely different scene I

terms in a completely different scene I kind of discovered Lutheran Theology and

kind of discovered Lutheran Theology and

kind of discovered Lutheran Theology and really loved it because it talks about

really loved it because it talks about

really loved it because it talks about Paradox and it's the center point of

Paradox and it's the center point of

Paradox and it's the center point of Lutheran theology is Grace it's not

Lutheran theology is Grace it's not

Lutheran theology is Grace it's not being a good person it's not striving to

being a good person it's not striving to

being a good person it's not striving to make yourself holy you know it's none of

make yourself holy you know it's none of

make yourself holy you know it's none of these things it's just this beautiful

these things it's just this beautiful

these things it's just this beautiful concept that all of the most

concept that all of the most

concept that all of the most beautiful and unearned things in your

beautiful and unearned things in your

beautiful and unearned things in your life you get to have like we get to

life you get to have like we get to

life you get to have like we get to breathe delicious air we get to be on

breathe delicious air we get to be on

breathe delicious air we get to be on this planet and yet we get a be alive

this planet and yet we get a be alive

this planet and yet we get a be alive and you can't earn the right to have it

and you can't earn the right to have it

and you can't earn the right to have it like most of the stuff in your life is a

like most of the stuff in your life is a

like most of the stuff in your life is a gift so for that to be the center the

gift so for that to be the center the

gift so for that to be the center the central idea of the theology I thought

central idea of the theology I thought

central idea of the theology I thought was so beautiful and so um I kind of

was so beautiful and so um I kind of

was so beautiful and so um I kind of dipped my toe back into Christianity but

dipped my toe back into Christianity but

dipped my toe back into Christianity but then um a friend of mine who was also a

then um a friend of mine who was also a

then um a friend of mine who was also a stand-up comic and also recovering

stand-up comic and also recovering

stand-up comic and also recovering alcoholic uh he ended up um losing his

alcoholic uh he ended up um losing his

alcoholic uh he ended up um losing his battle with uh mental illness and he uh

battle with uh mental illness and he uh

battle with uh mental illness and he uh took his own life and when PJ died all

took his own life and when PJ died all

took his own life and when PJ died all my friends looked at me and they're like

my friends looked at me and they're like

my friends looked at me and they're like well you can do the funeral right and it

well you can do the funeral right and it

well you can do the funeral right and it wasn't I hadn't been to Seminary it was

wasn't I hadn't been to Seminary it was

wasn't I hadn't been to Seminary it was just I was the only religious person in

just I was the only religious person in

just I was the only religious person in my whole friend group and so they're

my whole friend group and so they're

my whole friend group and so they're like obviously you'll do it and it was

like obviously you'll do it and it was

like obviously you'll do it and it was at the Comedy Works downtown it was

at the Comedy Works downtown it was

at the Comedy Works downtown it was packed and it was all these comics and

packed and it was all these comics and

packed and it was all these comics and alcoholics and academics and I looked

alcoholics and academics and I looked

alcoholics and academics and I looked out at the crowd and I was like these

out at the crowd and I was like these

out at the crowd and I was like these people need a priest like they need a

people need a priest like they need a

people need a priest like they need a pastor that somebody that's for them you

pastor that somebody that's for them you

pastor that somebody that's for them you know and then I was like oh [ __ ] I think

know and then I was like oh [ __ ] I think

know and then I was like oh [ __ ] I think that might be me like I think oh wow

that might be me like I think oh wow

that might be me like I think oh wow okay so I I really felt this call to be

okay so I I really felt this call to be

okay so I I really felt this call to be a pastor to my people you know because

a pastor to my people you know because

a pastor to my people you know because I'd go to these Lutheran Churches no one

I'd go to these Lutheran Churches no one

I'd go to these Lutheran Churches no one looked like me no one talked like me it

looked like me no one talked like me it

looked like me no one talked like me it wasn't you know they were friendly

wasn't you know they were friendly

wasn't you know they were friendly enough if I happened to show up but my

enough if I happened to show up but my

enough if I happened to show up but my people and my friends in my scene they

people and my friends in my scene they

people and my friends in my scene they weren't accessing this beautiful

weren't accessing this beautiful

weren't accessing this beautiful Theology and these sacraments and the

Theology and these sacraments and the

Theology and these sacraments and the Liturgy and the music and all this stuff

Liturgy and the music and all this stuff

Liturgy and the music and all this stuff I thought was so great so I basically

I thought was so great so I basically

I thought was so great so I basically had to start a church that I'd feel

had to start a church that I'd feel

had to start a church that I'd feel comfortable showing up to and so that's

comfortable showing up to and so that's

comfortable showing up to and so that's what house for all Sinners and Saints

what house for all Sinners and Saints

what house for all Sinners and Saints ended up being and it was like anti-

ended up being and it was like anti-

ended up being and it was like anti- Excellence Pro participation nobody

Excellence Pro participation nobody

Excellence Pro participation nobody cared what you believed like that wasn't

cared what you believed like that wasn't

cared what you believed like that wasn't that wasn't the basis of belonging at

that wasn't the basis of belonging at

that wasn't the basis of belonging at all and it was Acappella and it was like

all and it was Acappella and it was like

all and it was Acappella and it was like this four-part harmony and we sat in the

this four-part harmony and we sat in the

this four-part harmony and we sat in the round and it was it was very

round and it was it was very

round and it was it was very democratized and and weird and funny and

democratized and and weird and funny and

democratized and and weird and funny and um wild and

um wild and

um wild and holy it was beautiful and uh and I miss

holy it was beautiful and uh and I miss

holy it was beautiful and uh and I miss it yeah I have not been the pastor there

it yeah I have not been the pastor there

it yeah I have not been the pastor there for six and a half years so I left quite

for six and a half years so I left quite

for six and a half years so I left quite a long time ago but I served it for 11

a long time ago but I served it for 11

a long time ago but I served it for 11 years and it was a lot of fun we'd do

years and it was a lot of fun we'd do

years and it was a lot of fun we'd do like beer and hymns in the basement of a

like beer and hymns in the basement of a

like beer and hymns in the basement of a bar we do like blessing of the bicycles

bar we do like blessing of the bicycles

bar we do like blessing of the bicycles we bless the bicycles aspersion is like

we bless the bicycles aspersion is like

we bless the bicycles aspersion is like that holy water thing that you sprinkle

that holy water thing that you sprinkle

that holy water thing that you sprinkle holy water but we do it with like those

holy water but we do it with like those

holy water but we do it with like those little tassle things on the ends of

little tassle things on the ends of

little tassle things on the ends of girls handlebars you know we we do

girls handlebars you know we we do

girls handlebars you know we we do dispersion on the bikes and I mean we

dispersion on the bikes and I mean we

dispersion on the bikes and I mean we just had so much fun with this tradition

just had so much fun with this tradition

just had so much fun with this tradition because we didn't think it was Sac

because we didn't think it was Sac

because we didn't think it was Sac relegious we thought it it made sense

relegious we thought it it made sense

relegious we thought it it made sense this is how it makes sense for us you

this is how it makes sense for us you

this is how it makes sense for us you know it wasn't like you just invented

know it wasn't like you just invented

know it wasn't like you just invented things completely you were also going

things completely you were also going

things completely you were also going back to say like well what happens if we

back to say like well what happens if we

back to say like well what happens if we take the Liturgy and rethink how we

take the Liturgy and rethink how we

take the Liturgy and rethink how we experience it or how we interpret it but

experience it or how we interpret it but

experience it or how we interpret it but we are still working from the same text

we are still working from the same text

we are still working from the same text and from the same week to week idea yeah

and from the same week to week idea yeah

and from the same week to week idea yeah that was really important to me because

that was really important to me because

that was really important to me because I I thought you have to be deeply rooted

I I thought you have to be deeply rooted

I I thought you have to be deeply rooted in Tradition in order to innovate with

in Tradition in order to innovate with

in Tradition in order to innovate with integrity and so that's what we kept

integrity and so that's what we kept

integrity and so that's what we kept trying to do and that was important to

trying to do and that was important to

trying to do and that was important to me because I knew I don't have enough

me because I knew I don't have enough

me because I knew I don't have enough wisdom just on my own to make [ __ ] up

wisdom just on my own to make [ __ ] up

wisdom just on my own to make [ __ ] up you know like I would get it wrong or it

you know like I would get it wrong or it

you know like I would get it wrong or it would be somehow self-centered or it

would be somehow self-centered or it

would be somehow self-centered or it would be a quarter inch deep you know

would be a quarter inch deep you know

would be a quarter inch deep you know like I I really love the humility it

like I I really love the humility it

like I I really love the humility it takes to say oh actually Generations

takes to say oh actually Generations

takes to say oh actually Generations that came before us this is a weird

that came before us this is a weird

that came before us this is a weird thought have something to teach us you

thought have something to teach us you

thought have something to teach us you know we're so arrogant to think well

know we're so arrogant to think well

know we're so arrogant to think well that's old-fashioned or you know well

that's old-fashioned or you know well

that's old-fashioned or you know well they didn't have the same opinion on

they didn't have the same opinion on

they didn't have the same opinion on women as we do now therefore anything

women as we do now therefore anything

women as we do now therefore anything they say is not worthwhile something

they say is not worthwhile something

they say is not worthwhile something that you talk about in pastri and that

that you talk about in pastri and that

that you talk about in pastri and that I've heard you talk about a number of

I've heard you talk about a number of

I've heard you talk about a number of times is that before you started doing

times is that before you started doing

times is that before you started doing this work before you um were a pastor

this work before you um were a pastor

this work before you um were a pastor and were writing about religion you were

and were writing about religion you were

and were writing about religion you were a standup comedian and I think that's

a standup comedian and I think that's

a standup comedian and I think that's really interesting because I also am a

really interesting because I also am a

really interesting because I also am a standup comedian so I I'm curious to

standup comedian so I I'm curious to

standup comedian so I I'm curious to hear the connections that you see

hear the connections that you see

hear the connections that you see between the work of Performing to get

between the work of Performing to get

between the work of Performing to get people to laugh and the work of standing

people to laugh and the work of standing

people to laugh and the work of standing in front of people and trying to get

in front of people and trying to get

in front of people and trying to get them to feel or to identify with

them to feel or to identify with

them to feel or to identify with something bigger than themselves well

something bigger than themselves well

something bigger than themselves well first of all I don't know how anybody

first of all I don't know how anybody

first of all I don't know how anybody manages to ever be a preacher without

manages to ever be a preacher without

manages to ever be a preacher without having been a standup comic first

having been a standup comic first

having been a standup comic first because I I know it's not the most

because I I know it's not the most

because I I know it's not the most common path but I can't imagine being a

common path but I can't imagine being a

common path but I can't imagine being a preacher if I hadn't have been a comic

preacher if I hadn't have been a comic

preacher if I hadn't have been a comic first but but there are reasons for that

first but but there are reasons for that

first but but there are reasons for that one is economy of language that's what

one is economy of language that's what

one is economy of language that's what you learn when you're writing standup a

you learn when you're writing standup a

you learn when you're writing standup a lot of people don't realize that about

lot of people don't realize that about

lot of people don't realize that about standup it's all about writing truly

standup it's all about writing truly

standup it's all about writing truly it's about sort of how can you arrange

it's about sort of how can you arrange

it's about sort of how can you arrange these words in this really succinct way

these words in this really succinct way

these words in this really succinct way that has the impact that you want it to

that has the impact that you want it to

that has the impact that you want it to have there'll be bits you probably have

have there'll be bits you probably have

have there'll be bits you probably have bits where if you added one extra word

bits where if you added one extra word

bits where if you added one extra word it wouldn't be as funny right so there's

it wouldn't be as funny right so there's

it wouldn't be as funny right so there's an there's an of economy of language

an there's an of economy of language

an there's an of economy of language which is why I can deliver a sermon

which is why I can deliver a sermon

which is why I can deliver a sermon that's 1500 words long whereas a lot of

that's 1500 words long whereas a lot of

that's 1500 words long whereas a lot of people who just kind of ramble around

people who just kind of ramble around

people who just kind of ramble around points they'll do it for 30 40 minutes

points they'll do it for 30 40 minutes

points they'll do it for 30 40 minutes but I think the other thing is the idea

but I think the other thing is the idea

but I think the other thing is the idea of having somebody who's set apart to

of having somebody who's set apart to

of having somebody who's set apart to speak from their own perspective to a

speak from their own perspective to a

speak from their own perspective to a group of people and that group of people

group of people and that group of people

group of people and that group of people have allowed them to do it but also if

have allowed them to do it but also if

have allowed them to do it but also if you're not doing it well or if you've

you're not doing it well or if you've

you're not doing it well or if you've gone off track or you start being mean

gone off track or you start being mean

gone off track or you start being mean or you start being braggy or whatever it

or you start being braggy or whatever it

or you start being braggy or whatever it is people withdraw their laughter right

is people withdraw their laughter right

is people withdraw their laughter right they will sort of go we don't trust you

they will sort of go we don't trust you

they will sort of go we don't trust you we aren't allowing you to have this

we aren't allowing you to have this

we aren't allowing you to have this anymore and I think the same might be

anymore and I think the same might be

anymore and I think the same might be true of preaching too you have to in the

true of preaching too you have to in the

true of preaching too you have to in the act of doing it you have to maintain the

act of doing it you have to maintain the

act of doing it you have to maintain the trust of the people that you are doing

trust of the people that you are doing

trust of the people that you are doing it in front of I think I wrote this in

it in front of I think I wrote this in

it in front of I think I wrote this in pastricks that Comics see the underside

pastricks that Comics see the underside

pastricks that Comics see the underside of life you know we have this really

of life you know we have this really

of life you know we have this really slant View and that's why the things we

slant View and that's why the things we

slant View and that's why the things we say are funny because other people know

say are funny because other people know

say are funny because other people know they can recognize the truth in it they

they can recognize the truth in it they

they can recognize the truth in it they would never articulate it that way

would never articulate it that way

would never articulate it that way because they're normal you know like

because they're normal you know like

because they're normal you know like they have a normal view but Comics have

they have a normal view but Comics have

they have a normal view but Comics have this they see everything slant and so it

this they see everything slant and so it

this they see everything slant and so it it allows you to see reality in a

it allows you to see reality in a

it allows you to see reality in a different way that's actually very funny

different way that's actually very funny

different way that's actually very funny or absurd usually more often than not

or absurd usually more often than not

or absurd usually more often than not and a really good preacher can do the

and a really good preacher can do the

and a really good preacher can do the same where you're taking this text and

same where you're taking this text and

same where you're taking this text and you're taking the experience that you

you're taking the experience that you

you're taking the experience that you have and the experience other Humans

have and the experience other Humans

have and the experience other Humans Beings have and you're and you're

Beings have and you're and you're

Beings have and you're and you're looking at it slant in in in a spiritual

looking at it slant in in in a spiritual

looking at it slant in in in a spiritual way and then people are like oh and they

way and then people are like oh and they

way and then people are like oh and they have a certain aha moment as well so I I

have a certain aha moment as well so I I

have a certain aha moment as well so I I think they they are related I just I

think they they are related I just I

think they they are related I just I don't tell as many dick jokes from the

don't tell as many dick jokes from the

don't tell as many dick jokes from the pulpit you know and yet it's not zero

pulpit you know and yet it's not zero

pulpit you know and yet it's not zero your books definitely have a

your books definitely have a

your books definitely have a few there's a piece here that you do in

few there's a piece here that you do in

few there's a piece here that you do in writing about religion which is a lot

writing about religion which is a lot

writing about religion which is a lot lot of non-religious people associate

lot of non-religious people associate

lot of non-religious people associate preachers and pastors with this like how

preachers and pastors with this like how

preachers and pastors with this like how I want to be this kind of perfect self

I want to be this kind of perfect self

I want to be this kind of perfect self and you write about it in the way you

and you write about it in the way you

and you write about it in the way you actually are there's nothing sort of

actually are there's nothing sort of

actually are there's nothing sort of aspirational about me so uh a lot of

aspirational about me so uh a lot of

aspirational about me so uh a lot of people will give off um they'll give off

people will give off um they'll give off

people will give off um they'll give off this thing about themselves it it's the

this thing about themselves it it's the

this thing about themselves it it's the thing they aspire to be or like you say

thing they aspire to be or like you say

thing they aspire to be or like you say that's how they want to be seen like

that's how they want to be seen like

that's how they want to be seen like same with like a yoga teacher right I

same with like a yoga teacher right I

same with like a yoga teacher right I like cannot I cannot deal with yoga

like cannot I cannot deal with yoga

like cannot I cannot deal with yoga teachers who have that unnaturally

teachers who have that unnaturally

teachers who have that unnaturally straight posture all the time and they

straight posture all the time and they

straight posture all the time and they talk with that like passive aggressive

talk with that like passive aggressive

talk with that like passive aggressive half whisper and it just feels fake as

half whisper and it just feels fake as

half whisper and it just feels fake as [ __ ] right I'm sorry if you're pating

[ __ ] right I'm sorry if you're pating

[ __ ] right I'm sorry if you're pating yourself off of this like spiritual

yourself off of this like spiritual

yourself off of this like spiritual giant who's just never struggles with

giant who's just never struggles with

giant who's just never struggles with all the shitty things about your

all the shitty things about your

all the shitty things about your personality that I should I struggle

personality that I should I struggle

personality that I should I struggle with on The Daily I don't trust you and

with on The Daily I don't trust you and

with on The Daily I don't trust you and I just assume there's something really

I just assume there's something really

I just assume there's something really dangerous about you and so I had a yoga

dangerous about you and so I had a yoga

dangerous about you and so I had a yoga teacher who came in once and he was a

teacher who came in once and he was a

teacher who came in once and he was a little late which was unusual and he was

little late which was unusual and he was

little late which was unusual and he was like really apologetic he goes but

like really apologetic he goes but

like really apologetic he goes but honestly I just had a fight with my

honestly I just had a fight with my

honestly I just had a fight with my teenager and I threw my yoga mat across

teenager and I threw my yoga mat across

teenager and I threw my yoga mat across the room on the way out and I'm like oh

the room on the way out and I'm like oh

the room on the way out and I'm like oh great what do you have to teach us I'm

great what do you have to teach us I'm

great what do you have to teach us I'm ready let's do it right immediately

ready let's do it right immediately

ready let's do it right immediately trusted him it's so weird how often

trusted him it's so weird how often

trusted him it's so weird how often people will think I just want to thank

people will think I just want to thank

people will think I just want to thank you for being

you for being

you for being real I'm like what it's so weird that

real I'm like what it's so weird that

real I'm like what it's so weird that you can be thanked for not pretending to

you can be thanked for not pretending to

you can be thanked for not pretending to be someone you're not like what kind of

be someone you're not like what kind of

be someone you're not like what kind of world do we live in what is what is up

world do we live in what is what is up

world do we live in what is what is up with like spiritual leadership that that

with like spiritual leadership that that

with like spiritual leadership that that is remarkable a thing that it makes me

is remarkable a thing that it makes me

is remarkable a thing that it makes me think about is like when I'm doing great

think about is like when I'm doing great

think about is like when I'm doing great I'm happy to be around other people who

I'm happy to be around other people who

I'm happy to be around other people who are doing great who've got it all

are doing great who've got it all

are doing great who've got it all figured out there's something to learn

figured out there's something to learn

figured out there's something to learn from those people but when I'm

from those people but when I'm

from those people but when I'm struggling when I am in grief or I am

struggling when I am in grief or I am

struggling when I am in grief or I am hurting or something is just like my

hurting or something is just like my

hurting or something is just like my life is falling apart I am not

life is falling apart I am not

life is falling apart I am not interested in figuring things out from

interested in figuring things out from

interested in figuring things out from the person who hasn't all figured out

the person who hasn't all figured out

the person who hasn't all figured out already like I get that maybe it would

already like I get that maybe it would

already like I get that maybe it would be helpful if to learn from the person

be helpful if to learn from the person

be helpful if to learn from the person who's not grieving or in pain but what

who's not grieving or in pain but what

who's not grieving or in pain but what you actually want is to spend time with

you actually want is to spend time with

you actually want is to spend time with someone else who is similarly broken or

someone else who is similarly broken or

someone else who is similarly broken or or at least understands what it means to

or at least understands what it means to

or at least understands what it means to be broken in those ways well this is why

be broken in those ways well this is why

be broken in those ways well this is why alcoholics annonymous works right this

alcoholics annonymous works right this

alcoholics annonymous works right this is why Alcoholics Anonymous isn't let's

is why Alcoholics Anonymous isn't let's

is why Alcoholics Anonymous isn't let's get some trained counselors in here to

get some trained counselors in here to

get some trained counselors in here to help you people who are broken you know

help you people who are broken you know

help you people who are broken you know it's it's like [ __ ] up person a [ __ ]

it's it's like [ __ ] up person a [ __ ]

it's it's like [ __ ] up person a [ __ ] up person that's how it works you know

up person that's how it works you know

up person that's how it works you know and so in a way I think whatever I've

and so in a way I think whatever I've

and so in a way I think whatever I've been able to to to do in my life

been able to to to do in my life

been able to to to do in my life professionally uh I think it does just

professionally uh I think it does just

professionally uh I think it does just come down to the fact that I really try

come down to the fact that I really try

come down to the fact that I really try to stay in my lane and who I am I don't

to stay in my lane and who I am I don't

to stay in my lane and who I am I don't I try to never pretend to be more than I

I try to never pretend to be more than I

I try to never pretend to be more than I am or have it together more than I am or

am or have it together more than I am or

am or have it together more than I am or less than I am you know I mean I I'm not

less than I am you know I mean I I'm not

less than I am you know I mean I I'm not the same person I was you know I am I'm

the same person I was you know I am I'm

the same person I was you know I am I'm in my mid-50s and if I was still saying

in my mid-50s and if I was still saying

in my mid-50s and if I was still saying the things and talking like I was when I

the things and talking like I was when I

the things and talking like I was when I was 40 because that's when my audience

was 40 because that's when my audience

was 40 because that's when my audience started building you know and I have to

started building you know and I have to

started building you know and I have to be true to my brand still that wouldn't

be true to my brand still that wouldn't

be true to my brand still that wouldn't work either you know I want to talk to

work either you know I want to talk to

work either you know I want to talk to you about some of the like

you about some of the like

you about some of the like actual religious parts of of your work

actual religious parts of of your work

actual religious parts of of your work you know in real Faith because I find it

you know in real Faith because I find it

you know in real Faith because I find it personally to be really hard to talk to

personally to be really hard to talk to

personally to be really hard to talk to other people who I'm not very very very

other people who I'm not very very very

other people who I'm not very very very close with and certainly to talk about

close with and certainly to talk about

close with and certainly to talk about publicly about faith partly because I

publicly about faith partly because I

publicly about faith partly because I just don't actually have all that much

just don't actually have all that much

just don't actually have all that much language for it and also partly because

language for it and also partly because

language for it and also partly because I think people often bring a lot of

I think people often bring a lot of

I think people often bring a lot of their their own totally right and and

their their own totally right and and

their their own totally right and and reasonable baggage and history and ideas

reasonable baggage and history and ideas

reasonable baggage and history and ideas about um judgment or politics uh to it

about um judgment or politics uh to it

about um judgment or politics uh to it something that you wrote about in in

something that you wrote about in in

something that you wrote about in in Pastrick that really resonated with me

Pastrick that really resonated with me

Pastrick that really resonated with me is this idea of like I'm paraphrasing

is this idea of like I'm paraphrasing

is this idea of like I'm paraphrasing you but like I'm I kind of can't deny

you but like I'm I kind of can't deny

you but like I'm I kind of can't deny the power that this has had in my own

the power that this has had in my own

the power that this has had in my own life that I've seen how it has helped me

life that I've seen how it has helped me

life that I've seen how it has helped me and changed me and that really resonates

and changed me and that really resonates

and changed me and that really resonates with me that like I don't think prayer

with me that like I don't think prayer

with me that like I don't think prayer should work but I also can't really deny

should work but I also can't really deny

should work but I also can't really deny that when I have been struggling and

that when I have been struggling and

that when I have been struggling and even when I'm not struggling that it

even when I'm not struggling that it

even when I'm not struggling that it feels like it does something important

feels like it does something important

feels like it does something important for me yeah I know I mean this is

for me yeah I know I mean this is

for me yeah I know I mean this is because I think faith and reason are not

because I think faith and reason are not

because I think faith and reason are not as related as people want them to be you

as related as people want them to be you

as related as people want them to be you know I mean it it's very difficult I

know I mean it it's very difficult I

know I mean it it's very difficult I think to be people who who live with

think to be people who who live with

think to be people who who live with this elevation of human reason that

this elevation of human reason that

this elevation of human reason that we've had since the enlightenment where

we've had since the enlightenment where

we've had since the enlightenment where we're like we have the scientific method

we're like we have the scientific method

we're like we have the scientific method there are things that are provable as

there are things that are provable as

there are things that are provable as fact you know this is kind of

fact you know this is kind of

fact you know this is kind of superstitious this Faith stuff but the

superstitious this Faith stuff but the

superstitious this Faith stuff but the reality is that humans humans have

reality is that humans humans have

reality is that humans humans have always been religious religion has

always been religious religion has

always been religious religion has fashioned itself in Endless variety and

fashioned itself in Endless variety and

fashioned itself in Endless variety and I don't just mean like religion as we

I don't just mean like religion as we

I don't just mean like religion as we think of it now I mean human beings are

think of it now I mean human beings are

think of it now I mean human beings are symbol making creatures and we are

symbol making creatures and we are

symbol making creatures and we are creatures who have who Mark the year and

creatures who have who Mark the year and

creatures who have who Mark the year and the seasons in really particular ways

the seasons in really particular ways

the seasons in really particular ways and have language that we pass down

and have language that we pass down

and have language that we pass down generations and practices around the

generations and practices around the

generations and practices around the Divine and around I think even what some

Divine and around I think even what some

Divine and around I think even what some people would call worship you know this

people would call worship you know this

people would call worship you know this sort of uh exaltation that we feel in in

sort of uh exaltation that we feel in in

sort of uh exaltation that we feel in in moments of awe like those are all just

moments of awe like those are all just

moments of awe like those are all just really deeply human and and I think

really deeply human and and I think

really deeply human and and I think really beautiful parts of Being Human

really beautiful parts of Being Human

really beautiful parts of Being Human but what is also true is that humans

but what is also true is that humans

but what is also true is that humans aren't just beautiful human I have in

aren't just beautiful human I have in

aren't just beautiful human I have in Latin on my wrist tattooed simil eustus

Latin on my wrist tattooed simil eustus

Latin on my wrist tattooed simil eustus at picor which means simultaneously

at picor which means simultaneously

at picor which means simultaneously Sinner and Saint so I really think we're

Sinner and Saint so I really think we're

Sinner and Saint so I really think we're 100% of both all the time and what that

100% of both all the time and what that

100% of both all the time and what that means is that yes humans are capable of

means is that yes humans are capable of

means is that yes humans are capable of like Beauty and art and compassion and

like Beauty and art and compassion and

like Beauty and art and compassion and caretaking and love and all of those

caretaking and love and all of those

caretaking and love and all of those things and that's lovely and that's part

things and that's lovely and that's part

things and that's lovely and that's part of us

of us

of us and we are capable of selfishness and

and we are capable of selfishness and

and we are capable of selfishness and vengefulness and violence and uh all of

vengefulness and violence and uh all of

vengefulness and violence and uh all of these things as well and so what would

these things as well and so what would

these things as well and so what would be a really great way to leverage the

be a really great way to leverage the

be a really great way to leverage the worst parts of ourselves but using the

worst parts of ourselves but using the

worst parts of ourselves but using the systems we create to express the best

systems we create to express the best

systems we create to express the best part of ourselves right so religion has

part of ourselves right so religion has

part of ourselves right so religion has been used and manipulated to exert

been used and manipulated to exert

been used and manipulated to exert dominance over other people uh from the

dominance over other people uh from the

dominance over other people uh from the get-go so just like humans are not just

get-go so just like humans are not just

get-go so just like humans are not just one thing we're good and bad religion

one thing we're good and bad religion

one thing we're good and bad religion also not just one thing also good and

also not just one thing also good and

also not just one thing also good and bad right so there's there's there's

bad right so there's there's there's

bad right so there's there's there's that factor that makes it hard to talk

that factor that makes it hard to talk

that factor that makes it hard to talk about faith but then there's you know

about faith but then there's you know

about faith but then there's you know know Charles Taylor wrote a book about

know Charles Taylor wrote a book about

know Charles Taylor wrote a book about this post-enlightenment world that we

this post-enlightenment world that we

this post-enlightenment world that we live in and he said the enlightenment

live in and he said the enlightenment

live in and he said the enlightenment took with one hand like gave with one

took with one hand like gave with one

took with one hand like gave with one hand and took with the other and the

hand and took with the other and the

hand and took with the other and the thing that it took was enchantment you

thing that it took was enchantment you

thing that it took was enchantment you know human beings lived in world a world

know human beings lived in world a world

know human beings lived in world a world that felt Enchanted to them and now we

that felt Enchanted to them and now we

that felt Enchanted to them and now we think it's so superstitious but maybe

think it's so superstitious but maybe

think it's so superstitious but maybe there's something really innate within

there's something really innate within

there's something really innate within us that that really can see enchantment

us that that really can see enchantment

us that that really can see enchantment still can actually feel it it's more

still can actually feel it it's more

still can actually feel it it's more than intellectually assenting to

than intellectually assenting to

than intellectually assenting to theological proposition it's also this

theological proposition it's also this

theological proposition it's also this lived experience so it's very tricky and

lived experience so it's very tricky and

lived experience so it's very tricky and it's woven into the most vulnerable

it's woven into the most vulnerable

it's woven into the most vulnerable parts of ourselves as well uh and so of

parts of ourselves as well uh and so of

parts of ourselves as well uh and so of course it would be hard to talk about

course it would be hard to talk about

course it would be hard to talk about I'm wondering for people who are

I'm wondering for people who are

I'm wondering for people who are listening do you have any advice for

listening do you have any advice for

listening do you have any advice for people whose families or friends differ

people whose families or friends differ

people whose families or friends differ in their religious views and ideology

in their religious views and ideology

in their religious views and ideology and who um have religion as a real

and who um have religion as a real

and who um have religion as a real source of tension in their relationships

source of tension in their relationships

source of tension in their relationships just to to read you something um from

just to to read you something um from

just to to read you something um from Morgan one of The Producers on this show

Morgan one of The Producers on this show

Morgan one of The Producers on this show has a has a very good friend who's very

has a has a very good friend who's very

has a has a very good friend who's very close to her parents but her mom in

close to her parents but her mom in

close to her parents but her mom in particular is really intense about

particular is really intense about

particular is really intense about church guilting both of her children

church guilting both of her children

church guilting both of her children into coming to church with her

into coming to church with her

into coming to church with her especially on Easter each year and her

especially on Easter each year and her

especially on Easter each year and her daughters have told her many times that

daughters have told her many times that

daughters have told her many times that they just don't align with the beliefs

they just don't align with the beliefs

they just don't align with the beliefs of the church and religion and they

of the church and religion and they

of the church and religion and they don't want to attend but that hurts the

don't want to attend but that hurts the

don't want to attend but that hurts the mom's feelings tremendously and it often

mom's feelings tremendously and it often

mom's feelings tremendously and it often gets into these like tense and emotional

gets into these like tense and emotional

gets into these like tense and emotional conversations especially around the

conversations especially around the

conversations especially around the holidays and special occasion so that's

holidays and special occasion so that's

holidays and special occasion so that's not a isolated

not a isolated

not a isolated experience what how would you counsel

experience what how would you counsel

experience what how would you counsel this person well I think there's a

this person well I think there's a

this person well I think there's a there's a few ways to see it maybe a

there's a few ways to see it maybe a

there's a few ways to see it maybe a little differently because when we start

little differently because when we start

little differently because when we start telling the same story over and over

telling the same story over and over

telling the same story over and over about what's happening with us or our

about what's happening with us or our

about what's happening with us or our parents or whatever we have to at some

parents or whatever we have to at some

parents or whatever we have to at some point investigate is it still true can I

point investigate is it still true can I

point investigate is it still true can I tell the story from another perspective

tell the story from another perspective

tell the story from another perspective that's equally true that makes me less

that's equally true that makes me less

that's equally true that makes me less miserable that's what I try to do

miserable that's what I try to do

miserable that's what I try to do sometimes so it I probably this is a

sometimes so it I probably this is a

sometimes so it I probably this is a well it's probably worn smooth this

well it's probably worn smooth this

well it's probably worn smooth this story about her mom religion what they

story about her mom religion what they

story about her mom religion what they believe so I think first is to go are

believe so I think first is to go are

believe so I think first is to go are there different ways to tell the story

there different ways to tell the story

there different ways to tell the story that that are equally true but make me

that that are equally true but make me

that that are equally true but make me less miserable so one might be if your

less miserable so one might be if your

less miserable so one might be if your mom believes like

mom believes like

mom believes like fervently that um that she is doing

fervently that um that she is doing

fervently that um that she is doing something that is good right what is

something that is good right what is

something that is good right what is good is to go to church what is good to

good is to go to church what is good to

good is to go to church what is good to is to have your children at church so it

is to have your children at church so it

is to have your children at church so it might be that what their her mom really

might be that what their her mom really

might be that what their her mom really is doing is has an uninvestigated drive

is doing is has an uninvestigated drive

is doing is has an uninvestigated drive to see yourself as good and so you can

to see yourself as good and so you can

to see yourself as good and so you can have compassion for that in a different

have compassion for that in a different

have compassion for that in a different way than just this she wants us to do

way than just this she wants us to do

way than just this she wants us to do something we don't believe right so that

something we don't believe right so that

something we don't believe right so that might be one entry point but another is

might be one entry point but another is

might be one entry point but another is for them to investigate for themselves

for them to investigate for themselves

for them to investigate for themselves uh how important is is believing it in

uh how important is is believing it in

uh how important is is believing it in to to participate in it is there another

to to participate in it is there another

to to participate in it is there another good like meaning you don't

good like meaning you don't

good like meaning you don't intellectually assent to the theological

intellectually assent to the theological

intellectually assent to the theological propositions in this church but you do

propositions in this church but you do

propositions in this church but you do probably Ascent to the idea of our mom's

probably Ascent to the idea of our mom's

probably Ascent to the idea of our mom's not going to live forever and this is

not going to live forever and this is

not going to live forever and this is maybe three hours out of our entire

maybe three hours out of our entire

maybe three hours out of our entire lives hour and a half twice a year uh

lives hour and a half twice a year uh

lives hour and a half twice a year uh that maybe it's worth it and I don't

that maybe it's worth it and I don't

that maybe it's worth it and I don't have to believe these things and it's

have to believe these things and it's

have to believe these things and it's not even about that it's just about the

not even about that it's just about the

not even about that it's just about the fact that this would be a pretty easy

fact that this would be a pretty easy

fact that this would be a pretty easy way to make our mom happy and uh we

way to make our mom happy and uh we

way to make our mom happy and uh we don't have to believe the things uh so

don't have to believe the things uh so

don't have to believe the things uh so you know there's just different ways of

you know there's just different ways of

you know there's just different ways of sort of looking at our unexamined

sort of looking at our unexamined

sort of looking at our unexamined beliefs around stuff that I feel like

beliefs around stuff that I feel like

beliefs around stuff that I feel like can be really helpful with this sort of

can be really helpful with this sort of

can be really helpful with this sort of thing it's also interesting to think

thing it's also interesting to think

thing it's also interesting to think about that answer which I think is a

about that answer which I think is a

about that answer which I think is a really good answer in the context of

really good answer in the context of

really good answer in the context of what you said earlier of like at uh at

what you said earlier of like at uh at

what you said earlier of like at uh at 50 you are not the same person you were

50 you are not the same person you were

50 you are not the same person you were when you were 40 or 30 or or 20 I wonder

when you were 40 or 30 or or 20 I wonder

when you were 40 or 30 or or 20 I wonder what would like 30-year-old Nadia have

what would like 30-year-old Nadia have

what would like 30-year-old Nadia have have said to that person who's like I

have said to that person who's like I

have said to that person who's like I don't want to go chur Nadia would be

don't want to go chur Nadia would be

don't want to go chur Nadia would be like [ __ ] you I'm not going to your

like [ __ ] you I'm not going to your

like [ __ ] you I'm not going to your church yeah for sure no question no

church yeah for sure no question no

church yeah for sure no question no question it's interesting to think like

question it's interesting to think like

question it's interesting to think like that you know as you get older and you

that you know as you get older and you

that you know as you get older and you have some you change perspective and you

have some you change perspective and you

have some you change perspective and you have kids of your own how that changes

have kids of your own how that changes

have kids of your own how that changes the way that you think about these

the way that you think about these

the way that you think about these things too that's right and just growing

things too that's right and just growing

things too that's right and just growing in wisdom what I mean by that is the

in wisdom what I mean by that is the

in wisdom what I mean by that is the basic building blocks of my personality

basic building blocks of my personality

basic building blocks of my personality have not

have not

have not changed those are they're fixed uh the

changed those are they're fixed uh the

changed those are they're fixed uh the only thing that's changed is I've done

only thing that's changed is I've done

only thing that's changed is I've done enough personal work that um they don't

enough personal work that um they don't

enough personal work that um they don't kick me in the ass as much as they did

kick me in the ass as much as they did

kick me in the ass as much as they did 20 years ago

20 years ago

20 years ago but they're still there my first

but they're still there my first

but they're still there my first reaction to almost everything I is [ __ ]

reaction to almost everything I is [ __ ]

reaction to almost everything I is [ __ ] you it is that's it I don't I almost

you it is that's it I don't I almost

you it is that's it I don't I almost never stay there but I almost always

never stay there but I almost always

never stay there but I almost always start there always that hasn't changed

start there always that hasn't changed

start there always that hasn't changed and so I think there was a point in my

and so I think there was a point in my

and so I think there was a point in my life where I was like doing therapy and

life where I was like doing therapy and

life where I was like doing therapy and working the steps and doing all the

working the steps and doing all the

working the steps and doing all the things and yet I would still have these

things and yet I would still have these

things and yet I would still have these very angry aggressive sort of innate

very angry aggressive sort of innate

very angry aggressive sort of innate reactions to things that happened in my

reactions to things that happened in my

reactions to things that happened in my life and I really got down on myself and

life and I really got down on myself and

life and I really got down on myself and I had to realize like there's this my

I had to realize like there's this my

I had to realize like there's this my daughter had this t-shirt that she that

daughter had this t-shirt that she that

daughter had this t-shirt that she that where um it was this kind of cartoony

where um it was this kind of cartoony

where um it was this kind of cartoony image of a

image of a

image of a rhinoceros with the Horn uh on a

rhinoceros with the Horn uh on a

rhinoceros with the Horn uh on a treadmill sweating its ass off right and

treadmill sweating its ass off right and

treadmill sweating its ass off right and looking wistfully over at a poster on

looking wistfully over at a poster on

looking wistfully over at a poster on its wall of a unicorn meaning if I spend

its wall of a unicorn meaning if I spend

its wall of a unicorn meaning if I spend enough time on this treadmill I can look

enough time on this treadmill I can look

enough time on this treadmill I can look like they also have a horn I can look

like they also have a horn I can look

like they also have a horn I can look like that unicorn and I would not be a

like that unicorn and I would not be a

like that unicorn and I would not be a rhino anymore and I'm here to tell you I

rhino anymore and I'm here to tell you I

rhino anymore and I'm here to tell you I am still a rhino so I think that

am still a rhino so I think that

am still a rhino so I think that Americans are so into like there's my

Americans are so into like there's my

Americans are so into like there's my goal I'm going to make I'm going to take

goal I'm going to make I'm going to take

goal I'm going to make I'm going to take steps to beat the goal and it's like

steps to beat the goal and it's like

steps to beat the goal and it's like well that's great but there's some

well that's great but there's some

well that's great but there's some things that aren't going to change about

things that aren't going to change about

things that aren't going to change about you and so how do you have compassion

you and so how do you have compassion

you and so how do you have compassion for that I love that and you know the

for that I love that and you know the

for that I love that and you know the one thing that I think I disagree with

one thing that I think I disagree with

one thing that I think I disagree with in what you just said or I was going to

in what you just said or I was going to

in what you just said or I was going to disagree with but then maybe the 1%

disagree with but then maybe the 1%

disagree with but then maybe the 1% thing is the same thing is this idea

thing is the same thing is this idea

thing is the same thing is this idea that like you may never be the Unicorn

that like you may never be the Unicorn

that like you may never be the Unicorn right and I think it's silly to like run

right and I think it's silly to like run

right and I think it's silly to like run on the treadmill trying to do it but I

on the treadmill trying to do it but I

on the treadmill trying to do it but I think that a lot of people throw their

think that a lot of people throw their

think that a lot of people throw their hands up at problems in the world or

hands up at problems in the world or

hands up at problems in the world or themselves because they're like I can't

themselves because they're like I can't

themselves because they're like I can't get to 100 and I'm like fine just do

get to 100 and I'm like fine just do

get to 100 and I'm like fine just do something right and so the reason I like

something right and so the reason I like

something right and so the reason I like doing this show is because I get to talk

doing this show is because I get to talk

doing this show is because I get to talk to really smart really passionate people

to really smart really passionate people

to really smart really passionate people who have these big ideas and then say

who have these big ideas and then say

who have these big ideas and then say like okay but what would a regular

like okay but what would a regular

like okay but what would a regular person actually do and I would say like

person actually do and I would say like

person actually do and I would say like The Guiding philosophy is that like we

The Guiding philosophy is that like we

The Guiding philosophy is that like we should be able to do something I don't

should be able to do something I don't

should be able to do something I don't want to just throw my hands up and say

want to just throw my hands up and say

want to just throw my hands up and say like it is the way it is and I know you

like it is the way it is and I know you

like it is the way it is and I know you don't either right well it's interesting

don't either right well it's interesting

don't either right well it's interesting because there's uh I think it's always

because there's uh I think it's always

because there's uh I think it's always interesting to investigate what's your

interesting to investigate what's your

interesting to investigate what's your basic view of human beings and what

basic view of human beings and what

basic view of human beings and what they're capable of right so you can have

they're capable of right so you can have

they're capable of right so you can have a very high estimation of that or a low

a very high estimation of that or a low

a very high estimation of that or a low estimation of that and having a low

estimation of that and having a low

estimation of that and having a low estimation of that doesn't

estimation of that doesn't

estimation of that doesn't preclude Improvement it doesn't preclude

preclude Improvement it doesn't preclude

preclude Improvement it doesn't preclude the fact that we can grow in for

the fact that we can grow in for

the fact that we can grow in for instance in wisdom right but what having

instance in wisdom right but what having

instance in wisdom right but what having a really lofty High estimation of human

a really lofty High estimation of human

a really lofty High estimation of human beings does is it I think creates situ

beings does is it I think creates situ

beings does is it I think creates situ ations where we're unnecessarily

ations where we're unnecessarily

ations where we're unnecessarily critical and disappointed in ourselves

critical and disappointed in ourselves

critical and disappointed in ourselves and other people all the time instead of

and other people all the time instead of

and other people all the time instead of compassionate about it right and I like

compassionate about it right and I like

compassionate about it right and I like hey I like low expectations I find low

hey I like low expectations I find low

hey I like low expectations I find low expectations really relaxing right um

expectations really relaxing right um

expectations really relaxing right um and because then it you get to be

and because then it you get to be

and because then it you get to be surprised you get to be sort of thrilled

surprised you get to be sort of thrilled

surprised you get to be sort of thrilled and wowed in a way that really really

and wowed in a way that really really

and wowed in a way that really really high expectations all the time when do

high expectations all the time when do

high expectations all the time when do you get to be wowed and thrilled nearly

you get to be wowed and thrilled nearly

you get to be wowed and thrilled nearly impossible you know having low

impossible you know having low

impossible you know having low expectations sounds so depressing and

expectations sounds so depressing and

expectations sounds so depressing and yet I love the idea of doing what's

yet I love the idea of doing what's

yet I love the idea of doing what's actually possible and included in doing

actually possible and included in doing

actually possible and included in doing what's possible is what you said which

what's possible is what you said which

what's possible is what you said which is actually you do have some agency

is actually you do have some agency

is actually you do have some agency right you do have agency I think you're

right you do have agency I think you're

right you do have agency I think you're right some people give up and so while

right some people give up and so while

right some people give up and so while like in Christianity there's a whole

like in Christianity there's a whole

like in Christianity there's a whole sector of Christians who Believe in a

sector of Christians who Believe in a

sector of Christians who Believe in a Thing Called Progressive sanctification

Thing Called Progressive sanctification

Thing Called Progressive sanctification right it was I think this Wesleyan idea

right it was I think this Wesleyan idea

right it was I think this Wesleyan idea so methodists believe in Progressive

so methodists believe in Progressive

so methodists believe in Progressive Christian Perfection and sometimes if

Christian Perfection and sometimes if

Christian Perfection and sometimes if I'm talking to a group of methodists I'm

I'm talking to a group of methodists I'm

I'm talking to a group of methodists I'm like oh yeah by the way how's that

like oh yeah by the way how's that

like oh yeah by the way how's that Christian Perfection thing working out

Christian Perfection thing working out

Christian Perfection thing working out for you guys pretty good you're almost

for you guys pretty good you're almost

for you guys pretty good you're almost there because if you find that it's a

there because if you find that it's a

there because if you find that it's a failed project there's so much room for

failed project there's so much room for

failed project there's so much room for you in the Lutheran church we would

you in the Lutheran church we would

you in the Lutheran church we would never never buy into that [ __ ] you know

never never buy into that [ __ ] you know

never never buy into that [ __ ] you know but what what's what's another way of

but what what's what's another way of

but what what's what's another way of saying that achieving Enlightenment do

saying that achieving Enlightenment do

saying that achieving Enlightenment do you know what I mean I'm like o it just

you know what I mean I'm like o it just

you know what I mean I'm like o it just I just feel so suspicious of it when

I just feel so suspicious of it when

I just feel so suspicious of it when people go oh not only is this possible

people go oh not only is this possible

people go oh not only is this possible it's our goal I'm like I don't know like

it's our goal I'm like I don't know like

it's our goal I'm like I don't know like 2 3% less shitty is like so great for me

2 3% less shitty is like so great for me

2 3% less shitty is like so great for me so I don't believe in Progressive

so I don't believe in Progressive

so I don't believe in Progressive sanctification or Enlightenment I do

sanctification or Enlightenment I do

sanctification or Enlightenment I do think we grow in wisdom and that's

think we grow in wisdom and that's

think we grow in wisdom and that's different in in accidental Saints

different in in accidental Saints

different in in accidental Saints finding got in all the wrong people you

finding got in all the wrong people you

finding got in all the wrong people you write about this a lot of like that we

write about this a lot of like that we

write about this a lot of like that we can learn from people who we really

can learn from people who we really

can learn from people who we really don't want to learn from I thought one

don't want to learn from I thought one

don't want to learn from I thought one of the the my favorite chapters of this

of the the my favorite chapters of this

of the the my favorite chapters of this book because it was something that I

book because it was something that I

book because it was something that I hadn't really heard someone write about

hadn't really heard someone write about

hadn't really heard someone write about before is how you leading a church

before is how you leading a church

before is how you leading a church trying to you know bring people closer

trying to you know bring people closer

trying to you know bring people closer to to God there are also people in the

to to God there are also people in the

to to God there are also people in the church who you really just find annoying

church who you really just find annoying

church who you really just find annoying like not cuz they're bad but just cuz

like not cuz they're bad but just cuz

like not cuz they're bad but just cuz you're like that is you're an annoying

you're like that is you're an annoying

you're like that is you're an annoying person and I don't want to spend my time

person and I don't want to spend my time

person and I don't want to spend my time with you and yet that can bring you

with you and yet that can bring you

with you and yet that can bring you closer to some idea of what you should

closer to some idea of what you should

closer to some idea of what you should be without guilting yourself right like

be without guilting yourself right like

be without guilting yourself right like what can you learn from a person who is

what can you learn from a person who is

what can you learn from a person who is annoying to oh my gosh basically as soon

annoying to oh my gosh basically as soon

annoying to oh my gosh basically as soon as I start disliking someone or being

as I start disliking someone or being

as I start disliking someone or being really annoyed by them it feels as if

really annoyed by them it feels as if

really annoyed by them it feels as if God then goes okay now we know who's

God then goes okay now we know who's

God then goes okay now we know who's going to be the naughtiest teacher

going to be the naughtiest teacher

going to be the naughtiest teacher right it's con or they'll do

right it's con or they'll do

right it's con or they'll do something incredibly gracious towards me

something incredibly gracious towards me

something incredibly gracious towards me or or towards someone else I'll watch

or or towards someone else I'll watch

or or towards someone else I'll watch them be this extraordinarily kind person

them be this extraordinarily kind person

them be this extraordinarily kind person that I could never pull off and I'll

that I could never pull off and I'll

that I could never pull off and I'll watch them do it and I'm like who's the

watch them do it and I'm like who's the

watch them do it and I'm like who's the [ __ ] you know so it's often been like

[ __ ] you know so it's often been like

[ __ ] you know so it's often been like that and um I mean I even walked a few

that and um I mean I even walked a few

that and um I mean I even walked a few years ago I walked the commo de Santiago

years ago I walked the commo de Santiago

years ago I walked the commo de Santiago which is this thousand-year-old

which is this thousand-year-old

which is this thousand-year-old pilgrimage across Spain you walk 500

pilgrimage across Spain you walk 500

pilgrimage across Spain you walk 500 miles across Spain and um I had read

miles across Spain and um I had read

miles across Spain and um I had read stuff online where people are like you

stuff online where people are like you

stuff online where people are like you get this like Camino family where you

get this like Camino family where you

get this like Camino family where you you're with people from all over the

you're with people from all over the

you're with people from all over the world and you end up kind of each Town

world and you end up kind of each Town

world and you end up kind of each Town wanting to stay in the same places and

wanting to stay in the same places and

wanting to stay in the same places and you eat dinner together and you stay in

you eat dinner together and you stay in

you eat dinner together and you stay in touch afterwards and it's like this

touch afterwards and it's like this

touch afterwards and it's like this beautiful thing and I thought oh that

beautiful thing and I thought oh that

beautiful thing and I thought oh that looks so amazing and and I went and um

looks so amazing and and I went and um

looks so amazing and and I went and um and the funny like very hilarious thing

and the funny like very hilarious thing

and the funny like very hilarious thing is I thought I'll be a different person

is I thought I'll be a different person

is I thought I'll be a different person on the Camino like I won't be like me I

on the Camino like I won't be like me I

on the Camino like I won't be like me I won't find people annoying on the Camino

won't find people annoying on the Camino

won't find people annoying on the Camino and the very first person I met on the

and the very first person I met on the

and the very first person I met on the train I quickly dubbed the Canadian

train I quickly dubbed the Canadian

train I quickly dubbed the Canadian mansplainer he was an expert in

mansplainer he was an expert in

mansplainer he was an expert in everything including the thing I have

everything including the thing I have

everything including the thing I have two degrees in and like we it was maybe

two degrees in and like we it was maybe

two degrees in and like we it was maybe a 40-minute train ride and by the end I

a 40-minute train ride and by the end I

a 40-minute train ride and by the end I had put my earbuds back in right and it

had put my earbuds back in right and it

had put my earbuds back in right and it didn't get better and there was this

didn't get better and there was this

didn't get better and there was this point where even the people I really

point where even the people I really

point where even the people I really liked on the Cino who I buddied around

liked on the Cino who I buddied around

liked on the Cino who I buddied around with I wanted to get away with from a

with I wanted to get away with from a

with I wanted to get away with from a couple weeks in and so I took a cab and

couple weeks in and so I took a cab and

couple weeks in and so I took a cab and I skipped an entire stage of the Camino

I skipped an entire stage of the Camino

I skipped an entire stage of the Camino to get away from my

to get away from my

to get away from my Camino and when I did uh then the next

Camino and when I did uh then the next

Camino and when I did uh then the next day there were no pilgrims inside I was

day there were no pilgrims inside I was

day there were no pilgrims inside I was St I started in this little village and

St I started in this little village and

St I started in this little village and started walking and I I laughed out loud

started walking and I I laughed out loud

started walking and I I laughed out loud like I was totally alone laughed so hard

like I was totally alone laughed so hard

like I was totally alone laughed so hard I grabbed my knees if somebody had seen

I grabbed my knees if somebody had seen

I grabbed my knees if somebody had seen me they'd be like this woman has lost

me they'd be like this woman has lost

me they'd be like this woman has lost her mind but what I was laughing at was

her mind but what I was laughing at was

her mind but what I was laughing at was how I fell for it again this thing that

how I fell for it again this thing that

how I fell for it again this thing that I'm going to be a different person and

I'm going to be a different person and

I'm going to be a different person and it's never worked and and then I had

it's never worked and and then I had

it's never worked and and then I had this beautiful moment of compassion for

this beautiful moment of compassion for

this beautiful moment of compassion for myself and I I I said Nadia you are a

myself and I I I said Nadia you are a

myself and I I I said Nadia you are a very astute Observer of human beings

very astute Observer of human beings

very astute Observer of human beings including

including

including yourself and um and it's kind of the

yourself and um and it's kind of the

yourself and um and it's kind of the thing that allows you to be the writer

thing that allows you to be the writer

thing that allows you to be the writer you are and to be the preacher you are

you are and to be the preacher you are

you are and to be the preacher you are but it also might preclude you from ever

but it also might preclude you from ever

but it also might preclude you from ever happily being part of a group of

happily being part of a group of

happily being part of a group of people the thing that makes you special

people the thing that makes you special

people the thing that makes you special and allows you to do this work might be

and allows you to do this work might be

and allows you to do this work might be the thing that keeps you from being part

the thing that keeps you from being part

the thing that keeps you from being part of a group of people and I'm like I

of a group of people and I'm like I

of a group of people and I'm like I wouldn't trade

wouldn't trade

wouldn't trade it so having compassion for yourself can

it so having compassion for yourself can

it so having compassion for yourself can be it it it's not a fluffy idea to me uh

be it it it's not a fluffy idea to me uh

be it it it's not a fluffy idea to me uh I just came home from this two weekl

I just came home from this two weekl

I just came home from this two weekl Long training in Victoria uh BC I took

Long training in Victoria uh BC I took

Long training in Victoria uh BC I took it was an intensive so many hours a day

it was an intensive so many hours a day

it was an intensive so many hours a day for two weeks and it was on song leading

for two weeks and it was on song leading

for two weeks and it was on song leading like how to teach an audience a song and

like how to teach an audience a song and

like how to teach an audience a song and have them sing it it's a very particular

have them sing it it's a very particular

have them sing it it's a very particular skill and I was really committed to

skill and I was really committed to

skill and I was really committed to learning it but I had to be with the

learning it but I had to be with the

learning it but I had to be with the same like 10 12 people for 2 weeks and I

same like 10 12 people for 2 weeks and I

same like 10 12 people for 2 weeks and I prayed for weeks that I'd be given an

prayed for weeks that I'd be given an

prayed for weeks that I'd be given an open heart and open mind because I know

open heart and open mind because I know

open heart and open mind because I know how I am I mean it could be all over day

how I am I mean it could be all over day

how I am I mean it could be all over day one when I see somebody's being

one when I see somebody's being

one when I see somebody's being ridiculous right and it like 80% worked

ridiculous right and it like 80% worked

ridiculous right and it like 80% worked you know there were a couple days where

you know there were a couple days where

you know there were a couple days where I was like I can't stand these people

I was like I can't stand these people

I was like I can't stand these people and here are all the things that that

and here are all the things that that

and here are all the things that that are wrong with them and then we sang

are wrong with them and then we sang

are wrong with them and then we sang together and there's this beautiful

together and there's this beautiful

together and there's this beautiful oxytocin that you get from singing with

oxytocin that you get from singing with

oxytocin that you get from singing with people that creates this bond between

people that creates this bond between

people that creates this bond between you and this sense of well-being and

you and this sense of well-being and

you and this sense of well-being and connection and even my personality

connection and even my personality

connection and even my personality couldn't tear that thing down that that

couldn't tear that thing down that that

couldn't tear that thing down that that our brains were doing when we're singing

our brains were doing when we're singing

our brains were doing when we're singing together you know my personal uh

together you know my personal uh

together you know my personal uh experience with religion started with my

experience with religion started with my

experience with religion started with my parents are an Interfaith couple so my

parents are an Interfaith couple so my

parents are an Interfaith couple so my dad is Christian he's United Methodist

dad is Christian he's United Methodist

dad is Christian he's United Methodist and my mom is Jewish and I think I've

and my mom is Jewish and I think I've

and my mom is Jewish and I think I've I've sense learned that this is maybe

I've sense learned that this is maybe

I've sense learned that this is maybe not the most common where they both

not the most common where they both

not the most common where they both still believe and and go to their own

still believe and and go to their own

still believe and and go to their own spiritual practice and so I I kind of

spiritual practice and so I I kind of

spiritual practice and so I I kind of grew up thinking like it's natural to

grew up thinking like it's natural to

grew up thinking like it's natural to think that there are different ways of

think that there are different ways of

think that there are different ways of finding God and that one isn't

finding God and that one isn't

finding God and that one isn't necessarily wrong it's just there's

necessarily wrong it's just there's

necessarily wrong it's just there's different ways of getting to a similar

different ways of getting to a similar

different ways of getting to a similar place and and you wrote about that in in

place and and you wrote about that in in

place and and you wrote about that in in past as well that that that's something

past as well that that that's something

past as well that that that's something that you believe in even as you have

that you believe in even as you have

that you believe in even as you have your own strongly held foundational

your own strongly held foundational

your own strongly held foundational beliefs about your own faith I'm curious

beliefs about your own faith I'm curious

beliefs about your own faith I'm curious because I think that's not represented

because I think that's not represented

because I think that's not represented very well in popular culture as an idea

very well in popular culture as an idea

very well in popular culture as an idea that you can believe something really

that you can believe something really

that you can believe something really really deeply and allow for other people

really deeply and allow for other people

really deeply and allow for other people to possibly be right or at least have

to possibly be right or at least have

to possibly be right or at least have their own way too how do you talk about

their own way too how do you talk about

their own way too how do you talk about that or how do you think about that when

that or how do you think about that when

that or how do you think about that when when people struggle with it yeah I mean

when people struggle with it yeah I mean

when people struggle with it yeah I mean my husband is not Christian he's a

my husband is not Christian he's a

my husband is not Christian he's a heathen he has his own uh spiritual

heathen he has his own uh spiritual

heathen he has his own uh spiritual community that he's practiced with for

community that he's practiced with for

community that he's practiced with for 30 years so I guess it's like what's the

30 years so I guess it's like what's the

30 years so I guess it's like what's the difference between somebody's beliefs

difference between somebody's beliefs

difference between somebody's beliefs and their values and I think if your

and their values and I think if your

and their values and I think if your values are aligned you can believe other

values are aligned you can believe other

values are aligned you can believe other things and celebrate that in each other

things and celebrate that in each other

things and celebrate that in each other and it's not threatening it's not a deal

and it's not threatening it's not a deal

and it's not threatening it's not a deal breaker at all we're both in recovery

breaker at all we're both in recovery

breaker at all we're both in recovery right we both have been sober over 30

right we both have been sober over 30

right we both have been sober over 30 years and so we both believe in relying

years and so we both believe in relying

years and so we both believe in relying on God and praying for help and asking

on God and praying for help and asking

on God and praying for help and asking for Aid uh it from people and God uh not

for Aid uh it from people and God uh not

for Aid uh it from people and God uh not being totally self-sufficient we believe

being totally self-sufficient we believe

being totally self-sufficient we believe in being of service that anything any

in being of service that anything any

in being of service that anything any good we have is meant to be shared there

good we have is meant to be shared there

good we have is meant to be shared there are things that like our values are so

are things that like our values are so

are things that like our values are so similar that the fact that they're lived

similar that the fact that they're lived

similar that the fact that they're lived out in two different symbol systems

out in two different symbol systems

out in two different symbol systems matters not at all having humility and

matters not at all having humility and

matters not at all having humility and curiosity goes a long way spiritually to

curiosity goes a long way spiritually to

curiosity goes a long way spiritually to me I can hold this story of Jesus very

me I can hold this story of Jesus very

me I can hold this story of Jesus very close and and say this is the most true

close and and say this is the most true

close and and say this is the most true thing I've ever heard in my life I can't

thing I've ever heard in my life I can't

thing I've ever heard in my life I can't escape it I think it's so beautiful it

escape it I think it's so beautiful it

escape it I think it's so beautiful it has continued to offer gifts to

has continued to offer gifts to

has continued to offer gifts to me throughout my whole life and it

me throughout my whole life and it

me throughout my whole life and it doesn't mean that it's the only truth or

doesn't mean that it's the only truth or

doesn't mean that it's the only truth or the only way to understand God you know

the only way to understand God you know

the only way to understand God you know I think people think well because

I think people think well because

I think people think well because Christianity has been off as this is the

Christianity has been off as this is the

Christianity has been off as this is the only one true thing and if you don't

only one true thing and if you don't

only one true thing and if you don't believe this you're going to hell and

believe this you're going to hell and

believe this you're going to hell and all of that kind of thinking then

all of that kind of thinking then

all of that kind of thinking then they're like then I don't believe in

they're like then I don't believe in

they're like then I don't believe in Christianity it's like I I consider

Christianity it's like I I consider

Christianity it's like I I consider myself a christocentric Universalist so

myself a christocentric Universalist so

myself a christocentric Universalist so this is my thing and like it it's all

this is my thing and like it it's all

this is my thing and like it it's all about Jesus for me and and I believe

about Jesus for me and and I believe

about Jesus for me and and I believe that God is of course too powerful too

that God is of course too powerful too

that God is of course too powerful too mysterious for any one symbol system to

mysterious for any one symbol system to

mysterious for any one symbol system to contain the the totality of who God is

contain the the totality of who God is

contain the the totality of who God is God will reveal God's self through every

God will reveal God's self through every

God will reveal God's self through every simple system every effort that humans

simple system every effort that humans

simple system every effort that humans make to reach for it there will be

make to reach for it there will be

make to reach for it there will be something that they will grab that might

something that they will grab that might

something that they will grab that might be different than other people and yet

be different than other people and yet

be different than other people and yet it's feels like hubris to think that

it's feels like hubris to think that

it's feels like hubris to think that human beings can understand God through

human beings can understand God through

human beings can understand God through their particular thing and it's

their particular thing and it's

their particular thing and it's exclusive to them I I just have never

exclusive to them I I just have never

exclusive to them I I just have never heard anything more arrogant but that

heard anything more arrogant but that

heard anything more arrogant but that doesn't mean that your symbol system and

doesn't mean that your symbol system and

doesn't mean that your symbol system and your text and your practice and your

your text and your practice and your

your text and your practice and your prayers are the same as a Muslims or a

prayers are the same as a Muslims or a

prayers are the same as a Muslims or a Jews or whatever it's not the same but

Jews or whatever it's not the same but

Jews or whatever it's not the same but that uh it can be yours and you can go

that uh it can be yours and you can go

that uh it can be yours and you can go this is my thing and I have to allow for

this is my thing and I have to allow for

this is my thing and I have to allow for the possibility that God reveals who God

the possibility that God reveals who God

the possibility that God reveals who God is elsewhere as well have that humility

is elsewhere as well have that humility

is elsewhere as well have that humility you know the the two prayers that I find

you know the the two prayers that I find

you know the the two prayers that I find the most powerful and the ones that I

the most powerful and the ones that I

the most powerful and the ones that I come back to all the time in my own life

come back to all the time in my own life

come back to all the time in my own life uh maybe not every single day but close

uh maybe not every single day but close

uh maybe not every single day but close to daily are uh the from The Lord's

to daily are uh the from The Lord's

to daily are uh the from The Lord's Prayer like forgive me my trespasses as

Prayer like forgive me my trespasses as

Prayer like forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me

I forgive those who trespass against me

I forgive those who trespass against me and uh a a Jewish prayer a Hebrew Prayer

and uh a a Jewish prayer a Hebrew Prayer

and uh a a Jewish prayer a Hebrew Prayer of Healing elar where the way that I've

of Healing elar where the way that I've

of Healing elar where the way that I've been taught to say it is heal her heal

been taught to say it is heal her heal

been taught to say it is heal her heal him heal them heal me and then heal me

him heal them heal me and then heal me

him heal them heal me and then heal me in body and heal me in spirit CH I think

in body and heal me in spirit CH I think

in body and heal me in spirit CH I think that's so beautiful those two that those

that's so beautiful those two that those

that's so beautiful those two that those are the two prayers and that that they

are the two prayers and that that they

are the two prayers and that that they they kind of came out of this lineage of

they kind of came out of this lineage of

they kind of came out of this lineage of both your parents you know both these

both your parents you know both these

both your parents you know both these traditions and they've embedded in you

traditions and they've embedded in you

traditions and they've embedded in you in a way I it's that's beautiful I mean

in a way I it's that's beautiful I mean

in a way I it's that's beautiful I mean to me that's having faith a lot of

to me that's having faith a lot of

to me that's having faith a lot of people think they don't have faith

people think they don't have faith

people think they don't have faith because they don't think oh I don't

because they don't think oh I don't

because they don't think oh I don't think Jesus was really alive after he

think Jesus was really alive after he

think Jesus was really alive after he was dead right therefore I don't have

was dead right therefore I don't have

was dead right therefore I don't have faith and I'm like oh my God you

faith and I'm like oh my God you

faith and I'm like oh my God you definitely have faith in a million ways

definitely have faith in a million ways

definitely have faith in a million ways and and it doesn't have to do with do

and and it doesn't have to do with do

and and it doesn't have to do with do you think that this story is medically

you think that this story is medically

you think that this story is medically true you medically factual is there

true you medically factual is there

true you medically factual is there Resurrection in your life do you have

Resurrection in your life do you have

Resurrection in your life do you have stories of feeling like something was

stories of feeling like something was

stories of feeling like something was dead and now it's alive that's a form of

dead and now it's alive that's a form of

dead and now it's alive that's a form of faith and we have this huge symbol for

faith and we have this huge symbol for

faith and we have this huge symbol for that that we go this is the thing we

that that we go this is the thing we

that that we go this is the thing we believe in the most that the Divine

believe in the most that the Divine

believe in the most that the Divine still is sort of seeps in when we think

still is sort of seeps in when we think

still is sort of seeps in when we think there's no hope for something the Divine

there's no hope for something the Divine

there's no hope for something the Divine has this energy that it infuses into us

has this energy that it infuses into us

has this energy that it infuses into us and we breathe the next breath when we

and we breathe the next breath when we

and we breathe the next breath when we think we can't you know and it like

think we can't you know and it like

think we can't you know and it like that's we have this symbol that we

that's we have this symbol that we

that's we have this symbol that we constantly are saying this is what we

constantly are saying this is what we

constantly are saying this is what we believe in and so to to say to people

believe in and so to to say to people

believe in and so to to say to people well the only way to have faith is to

well the only way to have faith is to

well the only way to have faith is to say that medically you know Jesus was

say that medically you know Jesus was

say that medically you know Jesus was dead and then 3 days later he was alive

dead and then 3 days later he was alive

dead and then 3 days later he was alive you know it's like it way to way to

you know it's like it way to way to

you know it's like it way to way to drain all of the meaning and mystery and

drain all of the meaning and mystery and

drain all of the meaning and mystery and power out of what faith really is is to

power out of what faith really is is to

power out of what faith really is is to say that's what it is n isn't such a

say that's what it is n isn't such a

say that's what it is n isn't such a pleasure talking to you thank you so

pleasure talking to you thank you so

pleasure talking to you thank you so much for making the time to be here and

much for making the time to be here and

much for making the time to be here and for being on the show oh it was super

for being on the show oh it was super

for being on the show oh it was super fun thank thanks chross

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