Anna Malaika Tubbs: "The Three Mothers"
is about Alberta King,
Berdis Baldwin and Louise Little,
the mothers of MLK Jr.,
James Baldwin and Malcolm X.
And I wrote this book
to not only celebrate
these three incredible life stories
that we should have known
for years and years before my book,
but to also think about what their stories
could symbolize for Black women,
Black mothers, mothers more generally,
and what it could mean
to save their stories
from being forgotten, from being erased,
and how it changes our understanding
of where we are as a nation today,
how we have arrived here,
what are changes
that we still need to make.
Whitney Pennington Rogers: That's great.
I think in reading it,
you can feel how really lovingly
you put all of this together
and did this research and the attention
that you put to this,
this really comes through
in the finished product.
Well, we have we have
a question from Jeff.
Jeff says that, "As a father,
this talk changed my life.
I bought the book, a few copies,
and was in the audience in December live,
and it generated this concern for me.
How much history was impacted
with lack of mother's input,
especially Black mothers?”
And that's the question.
AMT: Oh, it's a big question.
First, thank you, Jeff,
I really appreciate that.
So much of our history,
we are missing these stories.
And the feeling that you felt
in being in that audience
and that I felt
in uncovering these stories
and every piece of the puzzle that I found
just really shocked me,
that we didn't know these things
already and infuriated me.
And it really caused me some deep sadness,
because I realized
how many more stories are --
I mean, we're missing so many,
and of course, not everybody
is going to be famous
and not everyone’s going to have
a book written about them.
But it's very, very unique, this erasure
of Black women's contributions.
It is very intentional.
Like I said, with "Hidden
Figures" as an example,
why would we not know that Black women
were the mathematicians
called "the computers"
behind a space launch?
That is critical information
for our history.
And for me to think
as a young Black woman,
when I was sitting in school,
when I was a young Black girl,
what that could have meant
to me to know that.
That it was a part not only of --
I could not be the first Black
woman to do something,
but that there was a history before me
of Black female mathematicians
and these brilliant brains.
And even as much as, you know,
my parents educated me on my Black
history and my African history
because even I have a privilege
that many Black Americans do not have.
I knew my connection
to my lineage in Ghana, etc.
So much of this history
has been robbed from us.
And it's a very strategic robbing.
It's not a mistake.
So that, just thinking
from that perspective,
we want to continue to uncover
more and more stories
of those who have been
intentionally marginalized,
intentionally oppressed.
Because the more we can correct
our telling of that story
and that history,
the better we'll do moving forward.
So these attacks on telling history
right now, it's very strategic.
It’s not, again, a mistake.
It's not something
that people are doing unconsciously.
It’s very: “We don’t want
to tell the truth.”
And we all need to reckon with that,
and we need to fight against that.
WPR: I think that it's really
interesting in the book
that you draw these parallels
between what was happening
in the lives of these three women
and what we're seeing happening, you know,
play out in the news today
or have seen happen at other
moments in history during their lives.
And you know, I'm curious
to hear how you think
writing this book changed your perspective
on the experiences of mothers currently,
just how you think about motherhood today.
AMT: Yeah, this is something
that I already knew was an issue.
Going back to my mom,
she would always say,
in every place that we travel
to pay attention
to how women are being treated
in the society,
how mothers, very specifically,
are being treated.
That is an indicator on how successful
this community will be.
And so I always carry that
in the back of my mind,
I was always aware that,
when I moved back to the US, for instance,
that we weren’t really giving mothers
the support that they deserved;
we certainly weren’t giving them
the celebration that they deserve,
and therefore the support was lacking.
And there was this lack of understanding
around the critical
importance of the role.
But in putting this book out there,
and even doing the TED Talk
and speaking to so many different
audiences around this,
it is a dire situation for mothers.
And whether that's on a personal level,
where those who have come up
to me and said,
“I am the mom who feels
unappreciated in my household right now.”
“I am the mom who feels unseen.”
To this national level of a crisis
where we are fighting for weeks
of parental leave,
mere weeks.
This is ...
It’s upsetting,
and we should be embarrassed by that.
These are things that should
have been established by now,
and I really do --
and I say this in the TED Talk --
I truly hope that within my lifetime,
we can usher in a shift that starts with
first saying: “Mothers are essential.”
We need mothers to be supported
because they are holding
so much of our lives together,
our society together.
Stay-at-home moms are performing some
of the most important work in our country,
and we are devaluing them.
And not only that, we are making them
feel bad about what they are doing.
This really is an issue
that more of us need to take on.
Going back to that very first question,
why this is an issue
for everybody to care about.
And it sounds obvious,
but we shouldn't have to say
that if mothers are dying
in a maternal health crisis --
one that is exacerbated for Black women --
the Black maternal health
crisis is alarming,
but generally the maternal
health crisis in the US is terrible.
It shouldn't be this way.
Mothers of all races are dying
more than they should be.
We need to pay attention to that.
That's not only bad
for mothers, obviously.
It's not only bad for mothers
if they have to walk away
from their job during the pandemic
because there were no supports
in place to catch them.
It's not only bad for mothers
if they have to choose
between being a mother
or making money for their family.
That shouldn't be put on their shoulders.
There should be supports in place.
We should have affordable child care.
We should have universal preschool.
All of these things that impact mothers
have ripple effects for the rest of us.
So, yes, it opened my eyes
to just how alarming
and how critical a situation
we're currently in.
Even though, again, my mom raised me
to know all of these things.
Through doing this work,
I’ve just now been kind of
awoken to the need
for people to open their eyes right now.
WPR: M. Watson has a question
that actually kind of piggybacks on this
more than just thinking about how
we can gain access to these stories,
they want to know, you know,
what do you feel is the most
effective way we can, as a people,
change the narrative around Black women?
You know, if you have
any specific examples
which I know you share some in your talk,
They ask,
"How can I personally be involved
in this work of changing this narrative?"
AMT: Great question,
and there are levels to this.
I would say definitely
understanding the history
of how Black women
have been treated is very important.
So again, it's a shameless plug,
but read the book.
I talk about not only these three women,
but again many of the goals that I had,
one of them also was to explain tropes
like the mammy and the matriarch trope
and the Jezebel trope
and the "welfare queen"
and the strong Black woman trope.
What all of these have meant
in American history
and what their intention was.
And that is to say that anything
Black women were dealing with
was their own fault.
That, with the mammy trope,
that we didn't deserve necessarily
to be compensated for work
that we were doing,
that we deserved to stay
within domestic work
and that we shouldn't necessarily
be paid what that work was worth
because we liked it
and we were happy to be the mammy.
The Aunt Jemima, who was smiling
and wanted to do, you know,
wanted to serve her white family
more than her own.
The matriarch trope that Black families
have been separated from each other,
not because of systems
that have made it so that --
you know, mass incarceration
or so many other things
that I can mention,
but instead because Black women
were emasculating their men.
Or the Jezebel trope that justified
sexual violence against Black women
because that's what Black women wanted,
they were more promiscuous.
Even the "welfare queen,"
saying Black women are having children
just to make money.
So you have to understand
this is a very long,
ugly, painful history
that we are dealing with as Black women
day in and day out.
And when people don’t get
that those are the burdens we are holding,
years and centuries of being told
that everything that's happening to you,
the pain you're going through,
is because of you
and not because of policies
we've voted for
or the ways in which we kept you
from being elected
or even being able to run for office
or even vote.
That's where it really begins.
Take the time as much as you can to know
how we've gotten to where it is right now
and then to really have a moment
where you fully appreciate
the incredible resistance of Black women
and the ways in which
we've continued to create life,
despite the ways that people
have tried to rob it from us.
And the vision behind what Black women
have been able to accomplish,
what they have imagined for this world
because we can't accept
the situation as it is right now
because that dehumanize us.
But we have pushed this nation forward
to our vision in incredible ways.
It's not only Stacey Abrams in Georgia,
it's a long, long history
of Black women saying,
"We don't agree
with the system as it is now.
So here is how we're going to
help you see the world
and the possibilities
from our perspective."
And you look at American history
from that angle,
and it is powerful.
There is nothing like it.
And therefore, you better understand
why we should elect more Black women,
why we should vote for them
to help usher our country
and continue to do it.
But with even more support
and even more backing,
because without that backing,
without that support,
when Black women have been erased
and misrecognized, misrepresented,
we have still created incredible change.
So now we're asking that we be heard,
we be listened to,
and that our energy no longer be spent
on explaining how we got here,
but instead on how we can do
whatever is next and whatever is possible.
So it’s kind of a combination
of try to learn our history,
support us as leaders,
put those tools in our hands
as much as possible.
Trust us, hear us, believe us,
and also stop wasting our time
on the need to explain the extra
when that's work
that we can do on our own.
That kind of brings me
full circle to my research
being around
I didn't reach out to the family
until I'd done my part.
So, yeah, I mean, even attending
a conversation like this
is part of doing your part,
so kudos to you all.
We're all real starting today.
WPR: And that's doing your part
to sort to educate yourself
on information that already
exists out there, it sounds like.
Beyond what we could do individually
to educate ourselves
and make change in this space,
what can we expect from our government
to do more on the national scale
and even thinking globally?
What are some things
that you would like to see
so that we change the way
that we, as a culture,
think about Black motherhood?
AMT: For this one,
because I'll give it quicker answer
than I have in me,
because you can tell I like to talk,
and I can go for a long time.
But in the book,
the concluding chapter is entirely
about what we need to do as a world
and what are the lessons that Alberta,
Berdis and Louise’s lives are teaching us
about our next steps forward
when it comes to policy,
when it comes to --
actually even kind of
the three-level layer
that I like to talk about,
which is the interpersonal level,
is an important one.
The conversations
that we're having with each other
and the stories that we're telling,
when I, you know,
in the TED Talk, a little snippet,
where we have mothers who feel
like they have to be selfless
and that we celebrate mothers
for being selfless.
So even around Mother's Day,
we say to moms,
"Thank you for sacrificing
everything for me
and for putting yourself
behind everybody."
And yes, a lot of mothers have done that,
and certainly if they have,
we should thank them for that.
But what we can start to do is shift
that story and that thank you,
and say, "Thank you for doing
everything you could do for us.
And also thank you for still seeing
yourself as a human being"
or "for representing yourself as a human
with a full range of emotions,
and for teaching me
about my first life lessons,
for being my first caretaker,
for being my first leader,
for being my first teacher."
Those are things that I think
more accurately represent mothering
in a way that is sustainable for mothers.
Where mothers aren't going to burn out,
where we're not putting all of it on moms
and then reiterating it by saying,
"Thank you for putting yourself
behind everyone else."
So that's on like an interpersonal level.
I do think those conversations
can make a huge difference
in terms of what mothers
are even thinking is the goal
of what we're trying to achieve
and what we want to be thanked for.
The second level of that is,
you know, in relationships,
even beyond our households ...
And I mean, like you said,
in terms of Black motherhood,
very specifically,
this burden of putting
our needs behind everyone,
I just did a piece
for “New York” magazine on this
that that is further
exacerbated for Black women
because we have been seen
as "the mothers" of a movement.
We're always like mothers
of something much larger
and not just, like, mothers
of our own children,
but this weight of what's placed upon us.
And specifically in this article,
I'm focusing on mothers
whose children have been killed,
whether by police officers
or neighborhood vigilantes,
and how in these moments,
instead of giving these moms
the space to grieve,
we're asking them to do something
for our entire country.
You know, we ask them to speak to crowds,
they run for office, which can be a part
of their personal healing as well,
but we interpret that as, look at what
this Black woman is doing for all of us,
rather than us thinking about what is
she going to do for her own healing,
for her own restoration?
So, that's kind of
the extra layer to that.
And then thinking about it
on a national level,
what we're voting for,
I think about what could
have helped Alberta, Berdis and Louise
and what we still need
to this day right now.
So to give a little bit more
information on the women.
Alberta King had to walk
away from her job
because the law stated at the time
that married women
were not allowed to teach,
and she'd always had this dream
of being an educator.
She had a bachelor's degree,
she had a teaching certificate,
but when she met her husband,
she made the decision to start a family
because this was like,
she had to make a decision.
And even though that law,
the marriage bar is not in place now,
what are the many ways in which
we're pushing women and mothers
out of their jobs?
There are many that still exist,
and we need to start addressing those.
These are just one example
from each woman.
If we look at Berdis Baldwin,
she was the victim of an abusive husband
for years, years and years.
And James Baldwin speaks about this often
how abusive his stepfather was.
But she didn't have anyone
she could really turn to
because, especially in Black communities,
we are so afraid of what might happen
if we call a police officer
and we have multiple examples of this
where we really needed
help and intervention
and then somebody ends up
being shot when they're called,
when police officers
are called to protect us.
So Berdis Baldwin was aware of this.
Her children had been harassed
by police officers.
James Baldwin tells a story
of when he was pushed into an alley
and he was maybe 11 years old
and police officers searched him,
they were looking for someone,
and just left him there
on his own, this little boy.
So she's not going to call them
to help her in this situation.
So she just endures this abuse
all on her own.
So what are systems we can think about
in terms of should there be
other people we can call
who are not police officers?
Should there be, you know,
more support even for social workers
that could come out?
That's something to think about
and to reflect on.
And then as an example for Louise Little,
I mean, all three of them have
these different painful traumas
that they experience.
And for Louise, one of the major ones
is that she is put in an institution
against her will for 25 years of her life
because she was this activist,
radical activist,
who spoke up against white supremacy,
who stands and faces-off
with the KKK, literally.
And a white male physician was sent
to her house to evaluate her
after her husband had been murdered.
And he concludes that she's
experiencing dementia.
And in his doctor's note,
he says that she is, quote,
"imagining being discriminated against."
"Imagining being discriminated against"
as a Black woman,
Black immigrant woman
living in the Midwest,
and that is enough to put her away
in an institution against her will.
So in terms of us thinking
about the biases
that Black women are facing
when they don't ask for help, even,
and people just decide they're going
to come in and evaluate them,
especially even when they do,
that they're going to be misunderstood,
that they're going to be told
they're imagining things,
these are things we need to address.
So we also have to do an evaluation
of our health care systems
and the biases that still exist.
So it's kind of like this endless list,
and I definitely don't want to end
on such a heavy and hard note.
But in that concluding chapter,
it's called "Our Lives
Will Not Be Erased,"
that's where I go with it, is policy,
and what we can do.
Kind of, some tangible next steps.
WPR: Well, I think that's
so important and so valuable.
And to your point of not ending
in such a heavy place, you know,
I guess, how do you feel, though,
about the progress we are making?
M. Watson asks, do you feel
that the Black women
narrative is progressing?
AMT: I am an optimist,
and I often say that my optimism
lies in this incredible activism
that Black women have held for so long
and we continue to envision
new realities for this world.
And that makes me really hopeful.
To study Alberta, Berdis and Louise,
who again, it's not ancient history.
Berdis passed away in 1999,
Louise passed away in 1991.
So this isn't like ancient
ancient history,
but they did face a lot of things
that I no longer face
as a result of their work
and a result of what
they were able to accomplish
and how they taught their children
to accomplish these things
and change the world.
So I'm not the kind of person
who thinks we are stuck
and there is no forward progress
that we've made.
I feel like that would be really
disrespectful to them if I felt that way
because they gave as much
as they could to that progression,
and it's my turn to carry
that forward as well.
But what I do hope is that more
people join us in this
and that Black women are not continuing
to have to do this on our own.
That more people will be aware of history,
I sound like a broken record,
but be aware of history
so that we can move forward
and fight anything that tries
to keep us from telling accurate
and full representations
of our country's history.
Because I think if we're aware of it,
then we won't want to repeat it.
And we have more people who will want
to be allies in this fight.
And in my contribution to this,
I'm just hoping I'm giving more of us
tools to join the conversation
and think about how we can
carry it forward.
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