How to pronounce "annabel"

Wendy Suzuki: It's really about shifting your mindset

about how you think about anxiety.

Most people just want to get rid of all their anxiety,

they don't want to think about it, they want to kick it out the door.

But anxiety evolved for a reason.

Anxiety evolved to help protect us.

It is a protective mechanism to shine a little light,

say, you should be paying attention to this,

you should be paying attention to that.

And that is what people need to appreciate.

[Intersections]

[Dr. Wendy Suzuki: Professor of Neural Science and Psychology, NYU]

[Annabel Spring: CEO of Global Private Banking and Wealth, HSBC]

WS: So can I tell you why I was so excited to be able to talk to you today?

And that is that, as a neuroscientist,

I've spent my whole career studying the brain and what works.

But by contrast, I've ignored certain aspects of my own financial well-being.

And now I get to sit down with a global banking expert,

and I know you're going to reveal secrets

that I will be able to decrease my own anxiety.

AS: Well, that's a conversation we should definitely have

because personal finance is very, very important.

And what I would love to hear you talk about

is a little bit about how do we get people over that anxiety

to actually address their financial services.

And I think that's really important.

So very, very curious to have this conversation.

WS: OK, great.

AS: But I'm curious to talk to you as well,

because I went into financial services to look after people

and to care for people.

My passion is actually about people.

And I went into financial services at first thinking, you know,

this is how we help people achieve their hopes and their dreams

and their ambitions and also look after their families and their legacies.

But what I've learned in financial services

is you can't just talk to people about their finances.

You actually have to understand the whole person.

And a lot of that is the work that you do,

whether it's physical fitness or mental wellness

or social connectedness or belonging.

You know, understanding people in the light of their communities

and their personal passions is a huge part of my role

but also a huge part of my personal interest.

So I'm excited to be here.

WS: Absolutely, absolutely.

I mean, I think we both have really unique perspectives

on what makes life worth living.

I think what makes a good life

is having something that you do

that you are just passionate about

and that you really want to give yourself to.

It doesn't have to be what you do for a living.

It could be giving to the community, giving to your own family.

That goal is so important,

and we know that that kind of aspiration

and the awe that it inspires in you as you think about that,

that is releasing dopamine in your brain.

That is what brings a lot of happiness.

Now how do you get there?

There is a long road to that

that includes you have to be financially able to do that,

but it also includes knowing how to regulate your stress levels

and deal with the increasing levels of stress

and anxiety in our society today.

But also to catch on to those things that bring joy in your life.

And I feel like that's what I've come to study as a neuroscientist.

That is, how to maximize joy and those positive emotions

and how to better regulate the difficult emotions

and use them as signposts

towards what you should be paying attention to.

AS: You know, it's so different.

As a banker, when I started to think,

you know, what is a good life, you might expect, and I did,

my first thought was, OK, consumption levels,

income levels, you know,

GDP per capita, living standards and all of those thoughts.

But then I did turn to where you are, which is, it's more subjective.

And we found, as a firm, we actually couldn't answer that question.

So what do you do if you can't answer that question?

You go out and ask a bunch of people.

So we asked 11,000 people, how do they look at quality of life?

What is quality of life for them?

And they came back with their top three factors.

And I think they'll accord a lot with the work that you do.

You know, one is physical health, another is mental wellness.

And the third is financial fitness.

And those components are critical to what makes a good life.

And now they're obviously correlated.

So what we saw is for people who are financially fit,

you know, they have significantly higher, 30 percent higher,

perception of their quality of life.

They’re 20 percent more likely to be physically fit.

And they’re twice as likely to be above the standard

or above the average of mental wellness.

So you can see that correlation.

And sitting back even as a banker,

but certainly I thought, gosh, what makes me happy?

What makes me happy and having a great day is going for a walk

and clearing my head,

talking to my husband or my children, or my mom or my friends,

knowing that I'm doing a great job at work

and really fulfilling that part of the purpose in my life,

whether it's at work or in the community.

And I know that makes a great day for me, too.

WS: Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, you're touching on something

that we know is so true from neuroscience research.

That is, our brains evolved to connect with each other.

There are parts of our brains that evolved just to be able

for me to be able to appreciate the expression on your face,

what that means, how you're connecting with me.

And we all have that.

And I think that's such an important element to remember

when we all spend so much time on our phones,

on our computers,

even with Zoom, it's not the same

as this kind of wonderful face-to-face interaction

that we're able to have today.

And asking yourself, is that a good part?

Is that a big part of my day?

My face-to-face interaction is a really good first question

to start asking when you head towards a good life, I think.

AS: So I want to scratch into a little bit

because just to balance this concept of a good life,

these elements of a good life, you know,

there’s a phrase: “Health is wealth.”

What does that mean to you?

WS: I think for me,

I would modify that phrase into brain health is wealth.

Why?

Because the human brain is the most complex structure known to humankind,

and it defines everything about us: our sense of humor,

how we converse with each other,

whether we're more introverts or extroverts.

It has to do with the connectivity of our own brains.

And so I say brain health is wealth,

because the healthier that your brain is --

How do we make the brain healthy?

With good sleep, with good food,

with good social connections,

with minimizing, though not eliminating all stress.

Because stress can be good,

it drives you towards the things that you want to achieve.

That will give you the longest possible healthy, good,

positive cognitive life that you could have.

So for me, brain health is wealth.

And I define wealth as that long, good cognitive life.

AS: See, I think the long life concept is really important.

So when I look at that phrase, I think about longevity.

And I think, you know, back in the '50s globally,

we had a life expectancy of around 47, which is shocking.

And now we're up in the 70s, which is a huge advantage.

So we have a much longer lifespan.

But when we look at health span,

still about a fifth of your life you're living with illness.

And that means we're actually living longer with sickness,

which is a very challenging thing to recognize.

So I think the first factor is absolutely everything that you say,

which is what can we do to ameliorate that

and making sure that we stay healthy?

And, you know, there's a dreadful investment analogy which I will use,

which is your health is your only personal asset.

It's not transferable,

it's not diversifiable, there are no alternatives.

It’s your most important asset, and it’s intangible.

And you've got to look after it.

But there's some financial implications of that as well,

which is if we're talking about living longer while we're sick,

we need to actually have some longevity literacy

and realize that we're going to live longer,

we need to save and invest and plan for that.

And if some of that's going to be while we're sick,

we actually need to make sure that we can fund our sickness as well

and make sure that we have a quality of life while we're sick.

And that obviously is pure savings and investments.

But then it gets into protection,

whether that's health insurance,

to allow people to bounce back and progress forward.

Because life is never a straight line,

you know, you never know quite when you might get sick

and you might not be at retirement, it might be before that.

So making sure that you have health insurance to get that bounce back,

and then life insurance for peace of mind

to look after your family should anything awful happen.

So I look at “Health is wealth,”

and I think, ooh, longevity, health span, savings and investments

to make sure that you can look after yourself

and insurance so that you can bounce back and you can look after your family.

WS: You make it sound so clear and easy,

but it's very scary for somebody thinking about that.

You know how long, how much do I need?

And what do we know.

I mean what would you say to somebody who listens to that and say,

oh gosh, I'm not sure exactly what to do.

Who should they go to?

AS: Do your reading online.

There's a lot of education online, a lot of financial education online.

And there are even some digital tools now

where you can look at, you can outline what your goals are

and save for each of those goals individually.

And have that looked at.

And I think there are some tremendous tools for financial fitness.

And the first step is curiosity and asking that question.

And the second step is education and having the conversation.

But please don't forget to act on it.

Making sure that you save and invest is really important

with a little bit of protection.

WS: Well, I mean, we talked about long-term fitness

and financial fitness,

but I wanted to ask you about your own personal fitness.

Because long-term health is so important for our long-term wealth.

What has been your personal history with physical fitness?

AS: I wouldn't be sitting here right now

if it wasn't for fitness, exercise and sport.

I am a huge proponent of team sports for girls.

Team sports for girls is a great --

actually, there's a Deloitte study about it --

team sports for girls gives you team building, problem solving,

leadership skills,

understanding other people, empathy,

how to win, how to lose,

how to compete and the rules of the game.

And I think that's a tremendous thing.

I was a rower, I was a swimmer, I was an athlete.

I've seen it in my sister, my mother and my children.

And I think that team sports for girls just sets you up for life.

That being said, right now I travel globally.

Team sports is not where it's at.

But I love to swim,

so my personal adventure in every city I go to

is to find somewhere to swim.

So it might be a lake in Switzerland,

it might be, you know, the beach in Asia.

On the weekends, though, it's my local public pool in London

with a bunch of wonderful ladies.

We get there at seven, we have a swim,

and then we have a big giggle and a coffee afterwards.

WS: Oh, that sounds great.

You know, I grew up in California.

Outside, I played tennis,

I was on basketball teams and softball teams,

so I grew up in the same way you did with that team-sport mentality

and learned so much from it.

But it took a big lesson,

a big kind of kick in the pants, if you will,

for me to really realize how important exercise was.

And this was a moment when I was trying to get tenure at New York University,

which is a very, very difficult thing to do.

And my strategy wasn't optimal,

I decided to do nothing else but work for six years.

I could do it for six years.

And I tried and didn't do so well and was not very happy

and didn't have a lot of social life

and was eating way too much takeout.

And discovered that going on a river rafting trip

to the wilds of deepest Peru,

I felt so good.

And I thought, my gosh, what's happening here?

And it actually changed my whole research direction.

I started to study the effects of physical activity in the brain,

and now I can tell you exactly what was happening to my brain.

So my workaholic brain was being infused on this river rafting trip

with a whole bunch of neurochemicals,

including dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline.

As your brain is in your morning London swims,

I like to call it a bubble bath of neurochemicals

that make you feel good.

It gives you an immediate mood boost,

it gives you an immediate focus boost.

So when you go back into work, you can focus on what you need to do.

It changed my life, and it changed my research

towards that to try and understand what is that prescription?

What should we all be doing at different ages?

And so yes, I am a big proponent of exercise.

And of course I try and do what I preach and do what I study.

So even this morning, we had to get in here pretty early.

I got in a good 20-minute yoga workout.

AS: I’m impressed, and it sounds like you enjoy it.

How do you link that concept of play and fun to a good life?

WS: So, you know, I have come to realize

that finding my own joy,

what I love to do is so important.

And yes, I stuck with my workouts

after, you know, trying to work so hard to get tenure

because I found things that were fun.

I love dance classes,

I love this workout called intenSati

that combines physical movements from kickbox and dance and yoga

with positive spoken affirmations.

So you'd have to yell out in class,

"I am strong now, I believe I will succeed."

And once you get over the awkwardness of yelling things out

with a whole bunch of other sweaty, affirmation-yelling people,

it feels so good to just get it out of your system

and yell with everybody else in unison, with the music, in rhythm.

It's a little bit like singing together in a sweaty chorus.

It's great.

I love it.

And so that made me realize

that there were so many other things

that I hadn't even discovered

that could bring that kind of joy into my life.

And that's what I look for.

AS: So that sounds like a really connected experience

and giving you that sense of belonging.

One of the things that we see is being part of the community

and social connectedness really increases people's quality of life.

You know, in fact, two times.

Can you talk a little bit about how you see that through your work?

WS: Well, I can turn to the research literature.

The longest study on happiness that has ever been done

is still ongoing at Harvard,

and now is run by Professor Robert Waldinger at Harvard.

And they asked: What makes a happy life?

And the answer was the more social connections that you had.

They didn't have to be deep ones that you, you know,

give presents to at Christmas every year.

That included a friendly interaction with the barista at Starbucks.

That counts.

The more you had, the happier you were in life.

And it goes back to the evolution of our human brain,

that we have so many areas evolved

to help us figure out how to have these social interactions.

It's because that social connection is so important to us,

not that every social connection is positive.

There are, you know, difficult social connections too.

But that is the crux of what makes us human.

And we know that the more positive ones that you could create in your world,

the happier you'll be.

So that's a pretty simple formula that anybody can use today.

Can I say hello in a more friendly way to more people?

That's going to increase your happiness.

And I love that because it's doable for anybody, anywhere.

AS: Yeah, it's so true.

You know, some of the saddest conversations

that I occasionally have with some of our wealthier clients

are people who have really separated,

they've focused so much on one thing in their life

that they haven't spent time with friends

or family or their community.

And as they've aged, you know, they've left work

and suddenly, they're more alone.

And the statistics that we see

is that a third of older people over 65

really do experience a much greater sense of loneliness.

And as we look around the world, that seems to be true,

whether it's in the UK or in China or here in the United States.

And I think it's incumbent on all of us,

whether it's financial services institutions

or universities or governments,

to find a way to address that

and keep those people engaged in the community.

WS: So I’m a professor at New York University,

and I think everybody can relate to the anxiety of you have a question,

but do you really want to raise your hand and ask it in front of the whole class?

I had that same anxiety

through my entire educational experience.

But I went into academia.

So one day I found myself at the front of the classroom,

and I knew that 80 percent of those students had questions for me.

But, you know, were anxious about doing that.

And so I used that knowledge about my own anxiety

to relieve their anxiety.

So I came early and I stayed late, and I answered any questions.

I just hung out by myself so they could come up and ask me.

And I realized that was a superpower of my own anxiety.

That I turned my own anxiety,

and I turned it on the outside.

And I made it an act of compassion or empathy

to make sure that everybody could ask the question.

And it's not just this, take your biggest anxiety.

Take your financial anxiety.

You know, can you have a conversation?

If you had a great conversation with your banker

and you learned a great banking trick that relieved that anxiety,

can you share it with people?

So I think that is a wonderful way

to take the resolution of your anxiety

and help others with it.

And that's also a form of generosity.

AS: It's fascinating.

So how do we take that anxiety then and turn it into a good thing?

WS: Yeah.

AS: And we could take the financial anxiety

or any other anxiety.

How do people feel that?

And I think in your book you talked about anxiety

as a warning sign.

That it's something that maybe you should be dealing with.

How do we get people to use that and to act on it?

WS: That's such a good question.

And it's really about shifting your mindset

about how you think about anxiety.

Most people just want to get rid of all their anxiety.

They don't want to think about it, they want to kick it out the door.

But anxiety evolved for a reason.

Anxiety evolved to help protect us.

It is a protective mechanism.

To shine a little light,

say, you should be paying attention to this,

you should be paying attention to that.

And that is what people need to appreciate.

Think about, do you lay awake at night thinking,

"Oh my God, I didn't get to watch that last series on Netflix.

I'm so worried about that."

No, you don't worry about that.

You worry about your work, your finances, your relationships.

These are things that matter to you.

And so what your anxiety is doing is really showing you what matters most.

And actually going back to our first question,

what makes a good life for you.

If you flip it that way

and start to use your anxiety as a signpost

to realize it is helping to protect you from things that could be a danger,

then it becomes a tool that you can use

to order what you're going to do in your day

and in your week and in the next year.

AS: That's fantastic.

So anxiety as an opportunity alerter

and a risk management.

That's an absolutely fantastic thing.

WS: I mean, in a sense,

bankers are your anxiety detectors for your finances.

This is what they know in great detail, what you should be looking for.

And they cut that off at the pass

and give you tools to be able not to worry about that.

And I say that, I talk a lot about my own financial anxieties in the book,

because it's not just mine, it's everybody's.

Everybody's worried about finances.

No matter who you are.

Are you doing it the right way?

Are you investing?

What is investing?

Start with the basics.

So it's such an important one to appreciate,

how you can flip the script and use it to your advantage.

AS: Now we recognize that unfortunately for all of us,

two out of five of us will find some period of financial instability in life.

You know, we'll lose our jobs, our children will get sick,

we might get sick.

So understanding and having the financial literacy

to understand that that might happen

and thinking through ahead of time

what might I need to prepare for that

is also really important.

So that cash on hand, or if you do have the ability,

a little bit of insurance to cover some of those things,

really, really important.

But again, going back to our conversation on curiosity,

making sure that you've taken advantage of the digital tools,

the planning tools,

there are so many goal planners and trackers and budgeting tools online.

Almost all banks provide them.

And certainly we do.

Have a look at them

and really just get financially educated,

because I think that relieves a lot of the anxiety.

It really does.

WS: No, I think that will help a lot of people.

It made my shoulders go down.

There you go.

AS: So I was really curious, world-famous neuroscientist,

what is the one thing

that we should all be doing for our brain every day?

What should we be doing?

WS: I’m going to say: moving your body.

Just 10 minutes of walking,

that everybody anywhere could do,

decreases your anxiety and depression levels

because you are flooding your brain,

even with a 10-minute walk,

with this neurochemical bubble bath of dopamine,

serotonin, noradrenaline.

And then think about what that does,

that bubble bath of neurochemicals,

if you do it regularly, not just for a day,

but over weeks, over months, over years.

You are literally giving your brain not only good neurochemicals

but growth factors.

You are making it, as I like to say, big and fat and fluffy.

And for this you can start any time.

Maybe you're a couch potato until you're 75.

Guess what?

You get up and start walking, you get that bubble bath.

So moving your body is my answer to that question.

So for you, I would love to ask a more long-term question.

What advice would you give to young people

about how to start planning their financial future?

AS: To get ahead as a young person, you've got to get started.

It's as simple as that.

You've got to get started.

So what am I saying to get started by doing,

you've got to start to save and invest.

Early and often.

And it's not complicated, it's not rocket science.

On the saving side,

it's the power of compounding interest.

And on the investing side,

it's time in the market rather than timing the market.

So just put your money in the market and get started.

That's the most important thing to do to start.

Now if I were looking at my children,

I would also say: and pay down that expensive credit card debt, please,

because there's not much point investing

if you're paying significant charges on expensive debt.

So make sure that that's gone.

And once you've got that started, that's a wonderful thing.

And we're seeing actually

that the generations are starting earlier and earlier.

So Gen Z, they're starting in their early 20s.

The millennials started in their mid-20s.

Gen X, we started in our early 30s.

The boomers in their mid-30s.

So they're starting earlier, that's fantastic.

And I think some of that’s technology,

and some of that's realizing that now you can start saving

and investing with less.

You don't have to have a lot of money.

Just put away a little bit.

Make sure that you’re consistently putting away a little bit,

so you get the benefit of that time in the market and that compounding.

Now as you get older, obviously you've got to make a plan.

You've got to make sure that you can pay for that first apartment,

that you can start to think about paying

for the other expensive things in your life.

And, you know, people like me,

you've got to make sure that you can pay for those college fees.

These are things you've got to save for as well as your retirement.

And just a shout out for women in particular,

given I'm looking at you,

you know this, you're going to live longer.

Sadly, statistically, women are going to earn less.

So it's even more important for women

not to just think about their children

and what they need now,

but to make sure that women also save for retirement.

Because you're going to be retiring for longer.

You want to make sure that you’ve thought that through,

and you've really got the longevity literacy to think through,

"I've got to make sure that I've got a plan."

WS: Great.

I think that's so important.

And it's so great that there's so many different options out there now.

AS: But the most important thing is starting and staying curious.

Because your needs will change.

And whether you learn digitally or you learn talking to people,

it doesn't matter.

Stay curious, stay engaged and start.

WS: You know, that's so funny

because that's exactly the recommendation that I give about brain health.

Stay curious about your brain health.

Stay curious about: What is the effect of sleep on my brain?

What is the effect of alcohol on my sleep and then on my brain?

If I do the movement that Wendy says to do,

do I feel a difference?

And you will.

And that kind of self-experimentation

is equally true for your brain and body health

as it is for your financial health, it seems.

And that key is really the curiosity

of, maybe I could ask this person.

Maybe I could explore, not just sleep and movement

but maybe meditation is good.

Is there information about that?

Yes, meditation is wonderful.

It’s a destressing tool.

But it's so interesting to see that the same tools

that are so valuable for good financial health

are also so valuable for good brain and body health as well.

AS: And I think it ameliorates that uncertainty.

You know, you talk about anxiety and uncertainty.

The more curious you are, the more you know,

the less you feel that uncertainty and the less anxiety I think you feel.

WS: Thank you so much for this conversation.

I’ve learned so much,

and my anxiety level around finances has significantly decreased.

What a pleasure to speak to you today.

AS: It's been such a pleasure, I can't tell you.

I will be going out, I will be exercising more

and moving towards that big, fat, fluffy brain.

It sounds fantastic.

Thank you so much.